Share This

Andrea Simon, Podcast

435: Explicit Expectations Are the Keys to Better Management

Posted on by Andrea Simon
R. Karl Hebenstreit


On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I’m thrilled to welcome back Dr. Karl Hebenstreit—organizational psychologist, executive coach, speaker, and now the author of a powerful new book: Explicit Expectations: The Essential Guide and Toolkit of Management Fundamentals.

Karl’s insights will be eye-opening if you’re a leader, manager, or anyone asked to take charge without much training or clarity. His central message? Everything is a conversation—and when expectations aren’t explicit, confusion and conflict inevitably follow.

From Enneagram to Explicit Expectations

You may remember Karl from a previous episode where he shared his passion for the Enneagram. That framework, which focuses on motivation rather than just behavior, changed how he saw people and how they relate to one another. In today’s conversation, we explored how that same thinking inspired his latest work—helping new managers step into their roles with clarity, confidence, and connection.

Karl’s journey into HR and organizational psychology wasn’t always linear. Early in his career, he realized that promoting high-performing individuals into management often left them unprepared for what came next. “We promote people and assume they’ll figure it out,” Karl says. “But without guidance, they’re left adrift.” That recognition became the seed for his new book.

Why We Get Expectations Wrong

Karl shared a striking observation: most people operate from their internal “golden rule,” assuming that others want to be treated like they are. But what if that isn’t true?

This insight draws from both the Enneagram and Karl’s own coaching experience. Managers often expect others to intuit their expectations, only to be disappointed when those assumptions don’t lead to desired outcomes. The solution? Make expectations explicit—hence the book’s title.

Explicit Expectations is more than just a how-to guide. It’s a toolkit grounded in real organizational challenges, especially for newly promoted managers without formal training. It offers a structured way to define goals, conduct one-on-ones, manage performance, lead team meetings, and even handle terminations—all through the lens of clear communication and alignment.

From Confusion to Clarity: Building a Living Agreement

At the heart of Karl’s approach is the Explicit Expectations Engagement and Alignment Guide—a tool that allows managers and employees to co-create clarity. It’s not a static checklist but a living document that evolves as business conditions and roles change. It helps each party articulate their motivations, communication styles, and priorities.

This idea resonated deeply with me. As a corporate anthropologist, I’ve seen firsthand how ambiguity breeds misalignment and disengagement. Karl’s guide gives teams a shared language and mutual understanding, vital to navigating change—something we know is constant in today’s fast-moving workplaces.

A Simple but Powerful Question

One of my favorite takeaways from our conversation is Karl’s approach to team dynamics: “Just ask.” Ask how someone prefers to receive feedback, what motivates them, and how they want to resolve conflict. These conversations don’t require a PhD in psychology—just curiosity, empathy, and a willingness to listen.

Karl emphasized that even without formal Enneagram training, managers can learn to tailor their approach by simply being explicit in conversations. The platinum rule—treating others as they want to be treated—starts with understanding what that looks like for each person.

Embracing Differences to Build Stronger Teams

Karl and I also explored how embracing cognitive and motivational diversity leads to stronger, more customer-centered organizations. He shared how teams begin to see the value of different Enneagram types and break free from the idea that there’s one “right” way to lead or be led.

This is especially relevant today as businesses navigate generational differences, hybrid work, and rapid digital transformation. As Karl puts it, “Your team is a microcosm of your customers.” Understanding internal diversity helps you connect more authentically with external markets.

Practical Tools for Real Change

Karl’s work is deeply relevant whether you’re leading a startup or a legacy institution. His book offers practical tools—strategic planning, onboarding, feedback, coaching, accountability, DEI practices—all through the lens of clarity and alignment. These tools are not just about being a better manager; they’re about empowering you to be a better communicator and collaborator, capable of driving real change in your organization.

And yes, Karl now has an AI-powered training twin! His methods are available in person, virtually, or through AI-enabled programs. As I often say, the future is here—and Karl is helping us manage it better. His methods have the potential to inspire and motivate change, transforming the way we manage and communicate.

Key Takeaways from the Episode:

  1. Unspoken expectations are a recipe for misalignment. Managers must articulate their needs and ask about others’ preferences—don’t assume.
  2. The Golden Rule is outdated—aim for the Platinum Rule. Understand others’ motivations and communication styles to treat them the way you want to be treated.
  3. Build a living agreement. Use Karl’s Engagement and Alignment Guide to create and revisit shared expectations as goals and roles evolve.

You can find Explicit Expectations on Amazon or at your favorite bookstore. To learn more about Karl and his work, visit www.performandfunction.com or connect with him on LinkedIn at Karl Hebenstreit.

If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe to On the Brink with Andi Simon, leave a review, and share it with a colleague. And remember: the words you use to create the world you live in. Let’s make those words clear, kind, and explicitly aligned. By committing to these principles, we can all contribute to a more engaged and harmonious work environment.

Other podcasts you will enjoy:

429: Embracing the Future: How Matt Leta is Guiding Companies

427: Empowering Women in STEM: Rashmi Chaturvedi’s Journey

424: Embracing Authenticity in the Age of AI: Vladimer Botsvadze

Additional resources for you:

Connect with me:

Listen + Subscribe:

Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.

Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let’s Talk!

 

From Observation to Innovation,

Andi Simon PhD

CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author
Simonassociates.net
Info@simonassociates.net
@simonandi
LinkedIn

 

Read the text for our podcast here:

Andi Simon 00:00:02  Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Welcome. I’m Andi Simon, and as you know, as a corporate anthropologist, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. I bring you wonderful guests on our podcast so that you can, in fact, learn new things that can help you regardless of where you are in your career or even in your personal life. Today I have Karl Hebenstreit here with me. Now. Karl did a podcast with us on his love affair with the Enneagram, and I’ll put that into the blog so you can refer back to it. It was a wonderful podcast and I’ve used Enneagram with clients. It’s a wonderful way to understand how you’re each different and how the team forms. But today we’re talking about a new book he has. It’s called Explicit Expectations: The Essential Guide and Toolkit of Management Fundamentals. Thank you, Karl, for joining me today. That’s the book. Oh it’s gorgeous I will put that up too. Let me get the audience and the listeners a little bit about you all as an author, an international speaker, an executive coach, and a human resource and organizational development leader. He’s been doing it for over 25 years. He’s got experience in biotech health care. If you’re looking at his face, he’s laughing because it’s been a long journey in telecom, hi tech pharmaceutical. He helps lead people and projects. He’s done executive coaching. What he really likes to do is find high energy ways of beginning to build better communities in organizations. And I think that his strength is in understanding how to build relationships, often about people who don’t know really what they’re doing, what their conversations mean, how this could really help them see, feel and think in new ways. So I’ll put my notes down. I’m going to ask Karl to talk about his own career journey and how it’s led to this new book, Explicit Expectations. And if you’re listening, it’s all about how do you really converse? Everything is a conversation, and when you’re doing it, do people hear what you say or what they think you said? And how do you know they’re going to be able to do what you want or what they want? And that’s become all the challenges of managing people and in fact, building relationships. Karl, who are you? And thanks for joining me today. And tell the audience all about Karl.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:02:25  Thank you for having me back, Andi. It’s a pleasure to be back talking with you and conversing with you. And hopefully we’re going to be aligned in our understanding of each other through our explicitness. The journey has been a long journey, and it’s been a wonderful journey. I’ve enjoyed it, and it started in, let’s see, not knowing what my life was going to be when I was young and being put in a direction by my parents, which I kind of changed slightly and added psychology to the mix. They wanted French and political science. I added that as well. So then I found my love for back then it was called personnel psychology, but organizational psychology. And that led me into a trajectory of getting into human resources. That led me to going for an advanced degree and a master’s in HR management. And then after evolving from that, I really went into organizational psychology and got my PhD in organizational psychology, which is where I was introduced to the Enneagram, which pretty much changed my life from the perspective of its not behaviors, its motivations and and perspectives.

So each person is coming to the world to understand you with their own set of history and ideology and values and experiences and everything that comes along with it. And by the way, we’re always taught that our way is the best way because of the Golden Rule. The Golden Rule is to treat others the way that you want to be treated. So obviously, the way that you want to be treated is the best way. So treat everyone the same way.

Andi Simon 00:04:01  The only way.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:04:02  Which would work if everyone were exactly the same. And I think we know they’re not. We are not exactly the same.

Andi Simon 00:04:10  Oh, those differences create all kinds of chaos. Because we’re assuming you’re just like me, and therefore you would think just like me, but you don’t at all. So where did that take you?

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:04:23  So that took me to really looking at how do I integrate the Enneagram into organizations to help them better understand themselves, each person to better understand themselves and then also their colleagues, their coworkers, their their teammates, their direct reports, their managers, their leaders, because that’s going to help you to understand what the expectations are of that person if you understand where that person is coming from, why they’re doing what they’re doing, why they’re making whatever decision or taking whatever action. If you don’t know where that’s coming from, that’s going to help you better understand and not see it as potentially evil. They’re doing this because they’re evil. They’re out to get me. They’re doing this because this is what truly motivates them. And they’re in their pattern. It may not be a successful or effective pattern because it may not be inclusive or integrative of all of the other possible ways of thinking or looking at the situation. But it is a pattern. So it’s the onus then becomes on us to say, let’s expand our worldview, let’s expand our own mindsets so that we can see the world through all these different lenses and all these different perspectives that are out there, which, by the way, then allows us to see what’s really going on as opposed to our biased, myopic, narrow view of what we’re used to.

Andi Simon 00:05:47  And, you know, it’s like I do that people live the story in their mind as if it’s the only story, and it’s an illusion. Remember, the only truth is there’s no truth. And so once you discover the Enneagram, you begin to have a whole different perspective on how to help people get along.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:06:05  Exactly.

Andi Simon 00:06:06  Out of that came this new book. Is that how that happened?

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:06:09  It is because really, what I’m seeing is when leaders in an organization decide that someone should be promoted, we need to have more managers. We need to have people managing all of these individual contributors. And we want to promote from within. So if someone doesn’t have any experience being a leader or a manager or people manager, this other leader that decides to promote them has expectations. Oh, they have great potential. I see myself in them. They’re going to want this.

Andi Simon 00:06:42  You’ve heard all those I know.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:06:44  And a lot of times they don’t even have the conversation with the person to say, are you even interested in this?  And sometimes it’s provided to the person and the person can’t say no because like, it’s a small organization, it’s a startup. This is an opportunity for me to expand and grow, that there isn’t really anything else for me to do in this organization unless I do this, and they may.

Andi Simon 00:07:04  Not wanting to do it. I don’t even know what it is they want me to do.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:07:08  Exactly. But it’s more money. It’s more responsibility. It’s a bigger title. It has visibility. All these different things come with it. So they say yes. And even if they do want it right, if they’ve wanted it all along, they say yes and they’re in the job and they’re like, what do I do? Where are the resources? Where is the support? Where is my mentor, where’s my coach, where’s my guidance? And the expectation is you figure it out, right. You’re smart. We promoted you because you’re smart. You did so well as an individual contributor. You figure it out. You could do this, which is great to have that kind of confidence in someone. And we also need to have some sort of support or mechanism. And that’s where this book came from. We came from an organization, a startup that contacted me and wanted me to help them with all of these individual contributors that they’ve promoted. And to give them some sort of common language and resource. A toolkit for them to be able to reference when things got rough, when things they didn’t understand what the expectation was of the organization in this regard. So in the absence of having a leadership development program or something, that would be a different type of support, at least everyone had this common toolkit with a common language and a common way to address all of these different aspects of being a manager. How do I do one on one? How do I do my team meetings? How do I do performance reviews? What if I have to terminate someone? How do I do hiring all these different elements that are just expected of someone to know just by the fact that they’ve been in an organization and they’ve seen it happen around them.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:08:46  So osmosis is supposed to really help them with this, but is never truly told, and it may not even be documented anywhere else. Maybe the organization is so small that policies don’t exist, procedures don’t exist, manuals don’t exist. So I did the project for the startup. They loved it. They’re using it. They’re loving life with it. And I decided I wanted to expand it. I wanted to add some more areas that they were not drawn to, but I think would be more complete for a leader to need or even someone thinking about being a leader. And I created the book Explicit Expectations around that, because it really is about, first of all, figuring out what are your expectations, your own expectations, and then validating those to make sure that those align with the organization’s expectations, your boss’s expectations, your team members, and your direct reports expectations. Because like you said earlier, we’re looking at the world through our own lenses, our own predispositions, and thinking that everyone is in alignment with us without explicitly stating what those are and validating that.

Andi Simon 00:09:54  I think it’s interesting. I’ve been working with a client for eight years now, and the last group of folks did all kinds of programs and development things, but the last time they gave us a bunch of new managers who they hired only to realize that they had no management skills. Yeah, they weren’t even looking for leaders. They just wanted good managers who can manage processes, manage people, and manage projects. Those are different words than a leader who has a vision, who’s able to mobilize people and motivate people. I mean, different skills. I was fascinated because they have such a hard time finding talent that they were perfectly willing to take some folks who could and give them to me, too. Having said that, I’m not sure looking at your list, I did this. I did, but I didn’t do it like this. And I’m really interested because the list that I have here, I’m going to read it briefly so that people understand the tools that you have, because I almost want to go back and say, okay, I missed all of this, but I didn’t because I did it in a different way.  But here we have strategic planning, organization design, diversity, justice, equity, diversity, inclusion, recruiting, interviewing, hiring, onboarding, goal setting one on ones and check ins, driving accountability, coaching and other leadership styles, feedback and critical conversations, and performance management. My goodness, you’re building a whole repertoire of skills for the people who need them in ways. Tell us about the book and also your perspective so that they’re not just words on a page. It’s an approach to becoming good at these things. Help me.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:11:30  So ultimately, the book rests on the concept that we know what we want, and we may think we know what other people want because of our backgrounds and expectations that we have. And yet, if we don’t make sure that we’re in alignment with them in all these different areas, every single part that you mentioned, we’re going to get into conflict, we’re going to get disappointments, we’re going to have people be upset. People are going to get poor performance reviews because they didn’t do what was expected. Leaders will be upset, stakeholders will be upset and organizations will not achieve the results that they’re looking to achieve. So each one of these concepts, and some of them are specifically nuts and bolts about being a manager, and some of them get more into the leadership territory about being much more about communication and being visionary and doing the strategic parts of the strategic planning. So it’s a little bit for whatever anyone might need. So whatever you might need in this mix, you will be able to find it. And ultimately, every one of these constructs and chapters that you discussed is ultimately feeding into something that’s called the Explicit Expectations Engagement and Alignment Guide, which is a physical copy of a guide that you sit down with the person that you want to have this alliance or contract with and say, this is where I’m coming from. Where are you coming from? This is how we’re going to work together. This is my thinking style. This is my feeling style. This is my action style.  What’s yours? Oh, we’re in alignment here, but we’re not alignment there. This is good to know. So I need to approach you differently. I need to understand that this is when I communicate with you. You’re looking at it from this angle, and I need to make sure that I address it from that angle or perspective. Or I need to communicate with you more differently. Like instead of verbally, you prefer an email or something that you do so that you can prepare and think about it and process in advance before you’re asked to give advice or an opinion or or a product from that. So it’s just making sure all these different elements are addressed and understood, and it’s meant to be updated. It’s meant to be a living document. As goals change are the person’s. Does the person have a clear understanding of what’s expected of them goal wise? And guess what? With all the massive changes that are going on in corporate in the world, which trickle down into each different corporation and the competitive landscape, whether it’s regulatory changes, legal changes, whatever it is, socio-political changes that are affecting things. Organizations don’t just have goal setting that happens at the beginning of the year and it’s the same set of goals at the end of the year. Priorities change, focus changes, entire business strategies change. So whenever something changes, get that contract out again and look at it and that alliance document the engagement and alignment guide and walk through it and say, okay, this has changed. This is no longer necessary. We need to refocus on this. Are you clear on this new thing? This is what your performance is going to be evaluated on at the end of the year based on these new changes. So it’s just making sure that all these things are taken care of and the right focus is being placed in the right areas, and people are clear on it.

Andi Simon 00:15:03  About clients I’ve had in the past are places where I’ve worked, and we would promote people into positions. Nurses typically would become a nurse manager with no skills, and they were good nurses. So clearly go to your model and then the Enneagram, they were acting as if everyone acted like they did. So as somebody might be thinking about themselves or their companies, or you’re thinking about a future client, tell me a bit how you would go about the process here. How do you do the audit or assessment, and how do you give them the right, contracts or tools to use to start the process? Because I’m curious.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:15:44  So I would normally, if the organization didn’t know anything about the Enneagram, but the pain point is we have massive turnover. We have employee disengagement. We just don’t know what’s going on. We need to do something. Enter with that pain point. So there could be that way or if they know the Enneagram and they want to use Enneagram because they’ve seen it be successful in the past, that’s a different approach. But saying that they’re agnostic of the Enneagram and they’re looking at it from the pain, the business challenge and pain.

 I normally do an exercise where I just ask the people in the room to tell me about what they think from their own perspective motivates people. And of course, they’re going to go with what motivates them. So they’re going to tell me what motivates them. And I usually plot it. I put it in a circle and I plot the different words that they use, and I plot them in these nine different buckets. Again, they don’t know anything about the Enneagram at this point, but the patterns start manifesting that you’re seeing the different words that they’re saying, and they’re usually saying words that coincide with are typical what we who we reward in organizations, and the way that organizations are set up to reward people with money. Money for achieving results. Money for controlling and executing on things. Money for being innovative. So we’ve covered a couple of the different energies. But we don’t have all nine right. So then we start asking the question over and over and over again and getting them to think about things more. Now they’re thinking about other people they may know, maybe people in their family, maybe their partners, what their kids, whatever, because they’re going to see that more in them than they will in their direct reports. And then they start coming up with words that fit into the other six categories or buckets. And then I ask them to raise their hand about which one of these would they put in their top three. So they’re going to raise their hand three times. And as they’re looking around the table with their peers, these are their peers. And their peers are raising their hands for different concepts, different constructs and they’re starting to get the point. The point is people have different focuses on what motivates them, what they’re looking for, what they’re looking to do, what’s driving them, what’s engaging them. And they automatically then see that they’ve been rewarding people for those three first buckets that easily became available, but not for those other six. So then it’s a light bulb that goes off and says, even in this room we’re different.

So expand that out to the rest of the organization and our teams. Imagine the differences there. So it’s understanding their own preferences in these different areas, and also understanding that other people are going to have different ones. Some may be the same, but not all.

Andi Simon 00:18:38  Now, with that in mind, I’ve done enough to now know the difference between you and me, for example. And then are there different ways of, for example, setting goals together or conducting my feedback sessions, or how would I modify my conversation to be more appropriate and so they can hear me and understand what it is I’m looking to do? How do I do that?

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:19:02  That question alone is the answer. Because it’s asking that question of each individual. Because they don’t know what their Enneagram type is unless they go through a workshop and everyone comes out with their Enneagram type and says, this is what it is, and this is this. This is what it means in terms of feedback. So if we don’t have that luxury of being able to put everyone through an  Enneagram workshop and come up with that and then have this specific guide that helps with each different person. It’s simple. It’s just sitting down and having a one on one conversation with each person on the team and saying, what do we do when we’re in conflict with each other? What do we do when we don’t understand? How do you like to receive feedback when it’s just creating a contract or alliance, and it’s going to be different with each different person based on their needs and their motivations.

Andi Simon 00:20:00  You know, as you’re thinking, I’m thinking about so many places where I was an executive vice president of a bank and how little we really knew about all of the managers, of all the branches and all the people they managed and what was working and what wasn’t working. I knew when I ran a bank branch, I took the most losing bank branch in the region. I was a new anthropologist, and they hired me as a consultant and they said, stay and learn the business. They said, well, give me something to manage so I can do it. And I realized that they didn’t tell me what to do. They dropped me in and I had to figure it out. And I didn’t even know banking, much less what these people who were counting on me to keep their jobs. But they said something. They were so funny. They said, listen, hon, you’re going to be here and then you’re going to leave. We’ve had that so many times. We figured out how to keep our jobs and not make any noise. So everyone who comes thinks they’re a star. And then they leave for something else. And we keep our job. And it was a very interesting manipulation. And I said, okay, so let’s play, let’s have fun together because you want to stay and I want to learn. So teach me. And once I reversed our roles, man, they were great educators. I mean, I was being taught by the best of the rest. and I was very humble about it, and I was very appreciative, but it was very interesting. And we became a very successful branch because they all pitched in and they weren’t they weren’t against they were all for it was a good team building. But it was an interesting feeling as I’m listening to you saying, man, I just jumped in the water or not, you know, and yet all of these things and without knowing what any of them meant, it was a foreign language.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:21:37  Exactly. And everyone has the knowledge, right? That’s the key. The key is that the people that report to you who are on your team have knowledge, and it’s different knowledge. And we need all those different perspectives that have that different knowledge in order to create the whole. We need them all. All those differences need to come together in order to be able to create this whole. Because whatever you have on your team, the representation of the constellation you have on your team is what’s out in the world. Yes it is. And if you’re creating a product or offering a service, it needs to mirror what the customers want, which hopefully you’ll have a representation of on your team. So you want all those diverse perspectives and motivations to really shine, to bring them out. So we don’t want to squash them and say, no, you have to think like me because my way is the best way. Golden rule expands into platinum rule. Find out what they want, what they think, what their motivations are, what their needs are, and then integrate them. Rhodium rules integrate them into the perspective that you now have as a leader or manager, which is an expanded worldview and expanded mindset.

Andi Simon 00:22:47  Karl, that’s a very big idea. We often talk about being customer centered, but most people impose on the customer their own view of the world.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:23:00  Exactly.

Andi Simon 00:23:01  And then they don’t quite understand why it didn’t exactly work the way he thought it was supposed to. Because that’s how the world is, isn’t it? And so it becomes a time of listening and hearing. And without putting it into a box that isn’t necessarily the right box. This requires a great deal of maturity, experience, and role playing. How do you ask the right questions but hear the right answers? I often take my clients out exploring as an anthropologist.  I love to go see their clients. So we spend a day in the life of their client, and we take lots of notes when we walk out and we compare what we experienced. And we were in two different places sitting next to each other. And they are fascinated. And they said, well, that’s not what I saw. I said, of course not. You’re fitting it into the world, you know, and I don’t know any world. And so I’m hearing it from the gaps. And so it becomes a moment for them and for me about what I didn’t see and hear. And that always is educational but what they didn’t either, which is transformational, you know. So now your sales folks have stopped selling the product and started listening to what customers are really talking about. And it becomes a really interesting opportunity. So when you do this with them, do you give them the book or you do the training and the book or how’s the whole process work?

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:24:22  So what we talked about just now is the introduction of the concept that there are these differences. The training can happen one of a couple different ways.

 I can come into the organization and deliver the training specifically for that organization in person or virtually, or have open enrollment training, and people will log in and take the training. I also have an artificial intelligence clone of myself who can deliver the training and do the role plays. My twin.

Andi Simon 00:24:56  My goodness.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:24:58  So that’s another way of doing it. And that’s totally, obviously totally scalable because that can happen while I’m sleeping. And obviously the fourth way is just getting the book and reading the book and referencing it whenever you need to do whatever you need to do in there and all the chapters. So there are many different ways of accessing the material and getting the content and putting it into action.

Andi Simon 00:25:22  Don’t you love it? It’s a great opportunity between you and your twin to reeducate so much of the world now. I had a prior podcast guest and we were talking about companies in this new fourth industrial revolution, having to understand what a human centric world is and about how we can stop the disconnect that people are feeling from the. The unfamiliar, it’s coming. It’s here and it’s not familiar, so I don’t fear it and my brain says fly away. You know, fear it, fight it. Don’t do it. Whatever you do, it’s bad stuff. It’s going to hurt you. But in fact, what you need is a leader and a manager who can help you understand it and help you go past the brick wall of, oh my gosh, I’m going to be really unsuccessful, lose my job. I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know how to talk about it. So your timing couldn’t be better, could it?

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:26:20  Yeah. Embracing the eye, embracing the new world. The new technology.

Andi Simon 00:26:25  Well, I have a hunch you’re doing this in old line companies. Start ups are important, but do you find any patterns that are worth sharing between the new and the old?

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:26:37  You know, I think in all the organizations that I’ve worked in, whether they’re large organizations, small organizations, public sector, private sector, government, They all have the same challenges because they’re all comprised of human beings, and the human beings all have the same challenges, right? Going back to what you were saying earlier, with organizations really looking at it through their own lens.  Even Marriott’s commercial was like, you know, we were approaching our service to you through the Golden Rule. Well,  should you be looking at what I want? Should you be looking for what you want or what I want?

Andi Simon 00:27:15  Titanium Plus! And I could tell you that they could start looking at it from my perspective, not theirs, because I hang out because the points are very valuable. But the experiences are becoming diluted and the people giving the experiences are getting diluted and the properties are getting diluted. And I stayed at a Hyatt this past week and I went, this is a very different experience. Yeah. And I was saying, do I become a Hyatt? I’m a Hyatt person too, without giving up my Titanium Plus. But maybe I should look for more Hyatt because it was very customer friendly. You know, the rooms were lovely, the people were amazing, and I was in awe of what was going on. Maybe it’s just this one  but, you know, you know, seeing it in the golden rule, maybe it’s time to get the platinum rule in place, right?

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:28:08  And you can always see if they’ll do a status match to convert you over.

Andi Simon 00:28:14  I love interviewing you. I’m so glad you came back. So his book is called Explicit Expectations: The Essential Guide and Toolkit of Management Fundamentals. What you’re really getting, though, is the perspective of Karl and how he wants you to see, feel and think in new ways. If they want to reach out to you, where can they do that? And where is the book? Where can they get that?

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:28:33  So the book is on Amazon and also available at your bookstores because it’s also through Ingram Spark. And this is what it looks like. Yeah. My website is www.performandfunction.com.

Andi Simon 00:28:50  A We’ll put that on. I’m sure we’ll make sure that’s in a prominent place.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:28:55  And I’m always available at karl@ performanceandfunctioncom and also on LinkedIn. my LinkedIn is Karl Hebenstreitt.

Andi Simon 00:29:05  I do think LinkedIn, thank you very much. It’s a place everyone finds everybody. But I think this is a time for us to make you and your book well available, because I think that managing through change.  I met somebody the other day who said, well, you know, they teach us change management in our MBA programs. And I said, yes, but change management needs to change. It’s the way you did it then isn’t necessarily going to help you in going forward in the way we’re doing it. And people don’t like to change. their brains say fear it, fleet fight it. But please don’t do it. it won’t hurt you. And so it’s time for a new way of doing that. So you need some explicit expectations.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:29:44  Yes. And communicating according to what everyone wants to hear, as opposed to what you think they want to hear. And that’s a huge component of change management. And I think that’s one of the failures, is that when organizations or leaders focus on what they think the people want to hear, as opposed to what the people really want to hear.

Andi Simon 00:30:01  And to follow your thought,  it’s not what you want them to do, it’s how they begin to help you co create the new at a time when they’re the ones who go to bed. You want them to do something new, but you don’t ask them how.  You don’t let them show you how and they have much better ideas than you might ever have because they do it. So, one or two things you don’t want folks to forget.

Karl  Hebenstreit 00:30:24  So I don’t want folks to forget that they should explore what their golden rules are, their own expectations and biases and ways of looking at the world, and invite them to expand into a platinum rule, of looking at the other possibilities that are out there with the other possible, perspectives, motivations, needs are. So it’s not just from their own mindset. So just look empathically through another person’s shoes or just having conversations and asking them about it and then integrating that into their worldview to have a much more expansive worldview. And another thing is to be more explicit with other people so that they know the other people know where they’re coming from, and also ask them where they’re coming from. So again, having that conversation, which really feeds into the first point.

Andi Simon 00:31:16  Remember that what you say isn’t what someone hears, and it may not be in any way something that they’re going to actually do, because if they have to learn a new skill and all you’re doing is directing them with words large, they’ll delete them before the brain even starts to work on them. So experiential learning, storytelling, changing the story, visualization are all tools that would be very helpful to get those explicit expectations down because when they explicitly draw a picture about it, you go, oh, that’s what you thought. That’s not what I want. And next thing you know, you go, oh, you didn’t understand what I said at all. Well, that’s what I heard, but that’s not what I meant. And so now we have a whole new way of change. And the times are changing. This has been such fun. I’m so glad you came back to visit. So let me say goodbye. It’s so much fun to bring our guests back. and I do want to thank Catherine Hall because she’s done a great job for you and for me. And she’s just a great woman who she has with sizes, book authors and, and just a wonderful woman. Catherine Hall is her name. And if you want a reference, I’d be delighted to share that. I think Karl would, too.

She’s really special. Now, let me say goodbye. Remember, our job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Our guests, like Karl, are very interested in helping you with explicit expectations, changing the way you learn to manage each other. Quite frankly, it’s as important at home with you and your family and your kids, you know. Are you sure they heard what you said? So they know they’re coming in at midnight, and that’s when you want them home. Not just sort of maybe. Careful, the words you use create the worlds you’re going to live in. And managing family is as important as managing others in business. So it’s a great time to learn some new skills. Our books are all available on Amazon and they love your reviews of them. Rethink, Smashing the Myths of Women in Business are really right there at the right time. Women Mean Business is a fabulous book filled with 102 women who want you to understand what they’ve experienced and on the brink the origin of this podcast.  It’s about how a little anthropology can help your business grow. And so my job is to help you change. So on that note, I’m going to say goodbye. Come again. Take your observations, turn them into innovations. And thank you again for joining us. Goodbye. Karl. Thanks.