On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Alan Gregerman, an internationally recognized authority on business strategy, innovation, and the hidden potential within all of us. Known as the “Robin Williams of Business Consulting,” Alan brings humor, humanity, and deep insight into how we can adapt, grow, and innovate in a world changing faster than ever before.
I couldn’t wait to share this podcast with you! My friend and innovation mentor, Alan Gregerman, joined me on On the Brink with Andi Simon for a stimulating conversation that digs into the interesting challenges facing all those who want to find their own best way of innovating. The “Robin Williams of Business Consulting,” Alan injects humor, humanity, and leading-edge thinking into the brutal truth about how we need to adapt, change & innovate so now we win in a world changing faster than ever.
Alan’s latest book, “The Wisdom of Ignorance: Why Not Knowing Can Be a Catalyst for Innovation in an Uncertain World,” reminds us that our lack of knowledge can be the source of the greatest discovery. During our conversation, we discussed his unique personal journey, his desire to help others reinvent themselves, and the most critical skills for all of us to cultivate to succeed in a world of disruptions.
Curiosity Begins Early
Alan revealed that his interest in other cultures began in early life. His mother, a specialist in world history, and one cherished gift — an atlas — prompted him never to stop learning and exploring. That early sense of curiosity would eventually form the basis of his career: to help businesses and individuals look beyond what they know, he tells them, to find new ideas in unexpected places.
This investigative spirit has characterized his writing, from Lessons from the Sandbox (about reclaiming the creativity of childhood) to Surrounded by Geniuses (on how ordinary people and ideas can spur innovation) to The Necessity of Strangers (for why we must connect with people unlike ourselves). Now, with The Wisdom of Ignorance, he contends that expertise is not sufficient: we must develop the courage to say “I don’t know” and use that humility to drive our future expos.
Why Adults Resist Change
A common refrain in our conversations was how hard it is to make a change. Alan reminded us that whereas 10% of people are quick to embrace new concepts, and another 10% resist vigorously, the rest of us tend to be somewhere in between. This resistance is not only cultural — it’s neurological. Because our brains are wired to conserve energy, they will always prefer established habits over new things to learn.
It’s why Alan emphasized that innovation frequently demands creating small, quantifiable experiments. We can try ideas out incrementally rather than insisting on wholesale change overnight. These experiments help build confidence, reduce fear, and allow us to adjust more organically to the world as it changes.
Watch our video of our podcast on YouTube.
Wisdom of Ignorance
Alan’s methodology is based on what he dubs the six fundamental skills for flourishing in uncertain times. Central to them is purpose. Without something transformative and exciting enough to wake up for, innovation merely wanders around aimlessly. Clarity of purpose, whether it’s in a for-profit or not-for-profit organization, is what leads to curiosity and experimentation, which begets growth.
“When I speak with people at non-profits, one of the common themes you’ll hear is a greater sense of purpose than businesses,” Alan says that both sectors need to revisit and sharpen their “why constantly.” “Best is a space that’s kind of a moving target,“ as he put it. What works today is no guarantee of relevance tomorrow, and without purpose, even the greatest idea can lose its impact.
The Six Essential Capabilities of an Innovative Organization
Alan boiled it down to six related skills – all of which are the building blocks of his book and consulting practice:
1. Purposefulness – Commit to something worth doing that is meaningful.
2. Curiosity – Ask for inspiration and you will find it, remembering that behind most great ideas is the thinking of others.
3. Humility – Acknowledge we don’t have all the answers, discovery starts with an open mind.
4. Respect – Respect everybody and everything, they are coming from somewhere unexpected.
5. Focus Forward – Peer into the future with a focus on newer trends, cultures, and ideas.
6. Paranoia: Stay aware of the fact that competitors and threats are always on your heels.
These habits together prompt us to adopt what Santayana gleefully termed “enlightened ignorance“ — a stance that appreciates not knowing as yet as the beginning rather than the end of knowledge.
Lessons for Leaders
As an anthropologist, Alan’s take felt eerily familiar. We both believe that growth is often staring organizations in the face, disguised in plain sight — if only they can look beyond their routines and assumptions. Leaders need to push teams out of their comfort zones, provoke new ways of thinking, and acknowledge progress along the journey.
Alan cautioned us that our customers aren’t loyal because they’re devoted to us — they stay with us because switching to another provider seems more complex. But they’ll leave as soon as something better comes along. Innovation, therefore, isn’t optional. It’s survival.
Human-Centered Change
All this talk of disruption nowadays is mainly centered on technology — and current trend words like AI, Bitcoin, blockchain, or the Fourth Industrial Revolution — but Alan warned us to remember that much more critical forms of change are human and social. From changing values across generations to increasing loneliness and shifting work habits post-COVID, leaders need to pay attention to the people side of transformation.
He urges us to reach out to strangers, listen more closely, and pay attention to the subtle signs of change that are all around us. In it, we can transform ignorance into discovery and shape futures that count.
A Final Thought
Alan’s lesson is that you don’t have to have all the answers in your mind to do something remarkable. All you need is a sense of purpose, curiosity, humility, respect for others, and a focus on the future — together with just enough paranoia to keep you from being complacent. Most of all, you need to warm up to the wisdom that eighth graders get every single day going into high school: not knowing.
For, as these people remind us: “We all actually do have the ability to make a difference. It’s something we can attain if we engage in a few crucial behaviors each day.”
His new book, The Wisdom of Ignorance, was published on October 14 and is available wherever fine books are sold.
Key Takeaways:
• Lean into what you don’t know — that’s where the wonder is, and that’s where you’ll feel becoming.
• Purpose orients; small experiments build confidence.
• Remain curious, humble, respectful of norms and traditions while remaining future-oriented, and a bit paranoid.
• The human and social change is at least as important as the technological disruption.
• Each and every one can make a difference one step at a time.
Connect with Alan:
Alan’s Profile: linkedin.com/in/alan-gregerman-a33b236
Website: alangregerman.com/ (Personal
Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Books: Learn more about our books here:
Listen + Subscribe:
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From Observation to Innovation,
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author
Simonassociates.net
Info@simonassociates.net
@simonandi
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The Full Text is Below:
Andi Simon 00:00:02 Welcome to On the Brink with Andy Simon. I am Andy and as you know, all of my fans who come all the time to listen to our podcast, I’m here to get you off the brink. Now, you may or may not think you’re on the brink or not, but I have to help you see, feel, and think in new ways so that you can change. These are very fast changing times; in case you haven’t noticed. And one of the messages for today is even if you’re really good and you’ve been doing a great job five years, ten years, you’re going to be irrelevant before you know it. Unless you begin to see things through a fresh lens and begin to reinvent yourself, innovate. Think about the world and what you don’t know and begin to add value very innovatively. And I am so excited to have with me today, Alan Gregerson. Alan has written a new book, but I think you’re going to enjoy his overall approach. His new book is entitled The Wisdom of Ignorance.
Andi Simon 00:00:59 Why not? knowing can be the key to innovation in an uncertain world. Alan, thanks for joining me.
Alan Gregerson 00:01:05 Oh, well, thank you Andy. Delighted to be here.
Andi Simon 00:01:08 It’s going to be fun. Now, let me tell you a little bit about why you should listen to Alan. I’ll give you a bit of his bio, but I think we’re going to dig into all of the ways he’s going to help you change. And that’s our job. Alan Gregerson is an internationally renowned authority on business strategy, innovation, and the hidden potential. I love this of grown-ups who have been called one of the most. He’s been called one of the most original thinkers in business today. And I need to understand better the Robin Williams of Business Consulting. And you can help this later when you tell us about yourself. He’s president and chief innovation officer of the Washington, D.C. based consultancy Venture Works. He’s also a bestselling author, a sought-after keynote speaker and a community volunteer. He donates about 20% of his time to volunteering because he wants to make the world a better place.
Andi Simon 00:01:56 But he’s also a very nice man, and you’re going to love listening to him. He’s the founder of passion for learning, which is near and dear to my heart. An award-winning nonprofit that teaches girls technology skills as a key to life and career success. Stem for girls. His work has been featured in over 250 leading publications Wall Street Journal, NPR, CNN, Fast Company is writing and speaking, and teaching has informed and hopefully inspired over 700,000 people. I’m so humbled by listening to you. His three previous books, The Necessity of Strangers Surrounded by Geniuses, and Lessons from the sandbox, all challenged conventional thinking about people, about the world and what it means to be remarkable. And where do ideas, brilliant ideas, just ideas come from? So, Alan, I think this is going to be a wonderful opportunity for you to tell your story. Remember, as people listen to a story, their own stories change. And so I like to start with a story. Who is Alan? Help us really set the stage for this new book because your passion and your purpose are inspirational.
Andi Simon 00:03:04 Alan. Thanks. Tell me, who is Alan?
Alan Gregerson 00:03:07 Oh, great. Well, thank you for the wonderful introduction. Delighted to be here. I guess if I were to think about kind of what makes me tick, it’s simply the idea that we all have the ability to be innovative and that the world is filled with so many sources of ideas and inspiration that could spark our best thinking. So if I think back to where I kind of started thinking about this, my mom was a world history teacher, and I gained an appreciation from just hanging out with her of the fact that the world was kind of remarkable, and that we often had a fairly narrow view of everything that went on in the world. The earliest gift I remember was getting a Hammond World Atlas, and I remember as a seven-year-old sitting on the den floor, looking through this atlas and imagining what was going on in all these different places. And today I actually take my customers exploring the world and thinking about new ideas and new possibilities.
Alan Gregerson 00:04:06 And I believe every day we have the chance to learn something new. So I guess the atlas started me thinking about places. I’d like to think that I really love to kind of learn. I like to learn about new people and new places. I love to connect with some of your audience and learn what they’re about. But for me, it’s all been about just imagining the power of ideas and imagining that different ideas happen in different places, and some of them become part of my life, and others I need to work a little harder to get to be part of my life, but I’d love to connect with them as well.
Andi Simon 00:04:43 Tell us about the. You know, I’m an author as you are. I’m also an explorer by archetype. I love to go wandering and I take my clients wandering because if not, they can’t see anything I’m talking about. They’ll delete me. So let’s talk a little bit about your journey through writing and how it came to this point where the wisdom of ignorance is the latest way of capturing your thoughts and pushing it out there.
Andi Simon 00:05:09 You know, give us a sense of your history of writing here.
Alan Gregerson 00:05:12 Oh, so we have to go back to something humorous. And that is, I actually got for 88 on the verbal S.A.T. I got 800 on the math. I don’t use math in my work anymore, but I remember writing in the high school where I took the test when they told you had to stop. I know only enough English to read the math. And now I’m a writer. So it turns out, as I was.
Andi Simon 00:05:39 Working, I mean, we could share experiences, but please go ahead.
Alan Gregerson 00:05:44 You know? So I started our business 37 years ago, and our focus is on innovation. And I guess the reality is I found that most companies and organizations and most people didn’t exactly understand how innovation happened. And so in addition to working with them, I wanted to actually start to share some ideas. And so I started writing. My first book started when our kids were young, and it’s a book called lessons from the Sand Book Box.
Alan Gregerson 00:06:10 It’s a book about why kids are really creative, and as adults, we lose the knack for being creative. I like to say somewhere between the school bus and the world of adult work, we’ve sucked the creativity out of grownups. But. So I was studying our kids and I was studying their classmates, and it dawned on me that were like 13 things that we did as small kids, that were vital to being innovative. And we can have them all back. We just have to invest in them. So I started writing about that. I, I’m a I don’t want to say I’m a religious journalist, but I carry a journal around with me. And if something strikes me, I write some notes and I might write a paragraph about it. And so I started then not being a writer, just starting to write. And I found that writing is a habit that gets you to be a better writer. And so I’d write things, I’d correct them, I’d make them better. And over time, I realized, you know, you can write if you find your own voice.
Alan Gregerson 00:07:11 And so my books are actually a lot like I talk, but. So I wrote that book. Then what I decided to do is I continued to work with companies was and I appreciate that you take some of your customers out was I started to challenge our customers to look beyond their world in their office. So I would say to them, you know, you guys go into work every day and you keep your heads down. The reality is you’re going to be innovative by actually getting out of the office, by not thinking about the groupthink that goes on in the office. And so I started taking them out to explore places, cities, nature, places where they would see remarkable things that had nothing to do with work. And we’d use those as the starting point for their innovation. That led me to write a book called Surrounded by Geniuses, the simple notion that we’re all surrounded by people, ideas, places, history, science, nature that could get us to think in new ways. Then what I realized was one of the challenges for the people I worked with was they tended to only hang out with people like them, you know.
Alan Gregerson 00:08:18 And if I’m being honest, all of the folks who are listening, probably if I was to look at their Facebook friends or their LinkedIn contacts, they’d be a lot like them. Right. So we tend not to connect with people who are different than us. And what I realized was the spark of innovation happens when I combine what I know with what somebody else knows. And so I wrote a book called The Necessity of Strangers, and that was trying to challenge people to connect with people who were different than them. And then what I realized was in a world and you mentioned it at the outset, in a world changing, super-fast. We can’t afford to stay in one place. And yet our expertise keeps us in that one place, so we need to step beyond it. And so that’s what the wisdom of ignorance is about. And it’s saying that our expertise is great, but it’s not going to get us where we need to go. We need to take a fresh look at the challenges and opportunities we face.
Andi Simon 00:09:13 You and I have so much in common. You don’t call yourself an anthropologist, but by nature, you really are. And you’re an observer. You’re intuitive. My first book, On the Brink, was about eight of our clients, all of whom had gotten stuck or stalled, and their growth was all around them. If only they took a little time to go explore it. And as we took them exploring, they began to have those moments. And I’m sure you have experienced those because it isn’t logical. It’s emotional. There’s something you feel like, oh, that’s what you’ve been talking about. Oh, that’s what we are facing. And I can only tell you that that moment is transformative. They no longer can see everything in a box. It’s not out of the box. It’s a whole new box. It’s a whole new sandbox. But it takes them pushing people out of their comfort zone or the group that they belong to. Humans are the most critically. They’re fascinating to me, which is why I look to study them, because they are their own strength and weakness.
Andi Simon 00:10:16 You know, I’m really, really good at this. I said, yeah, but nobody wants it anymore. So what are we going to do about it? But now it’s so interesting, though, as I listen to you, because while we come at this from different perspectives, we both are strong believers that there’s lots of growth around us, if only we humble ourselves a little bit and get out of the office and go talk to strangers or watch what kids are doing. And do you find people rise to the occasion and come, or do they? They put my favorite story. People hire me and immediately say, oh, we don’t do that. Lock me in a closet, you know. Don’t come out and don’t tell me to change. I’m fine. But you hired me to help you change. But I don’t want to change. You can change it. That old quote. I’m all for change. Just don’t change me. What do you find? Can you get the move of that hurdle?
Alan Gregerson 00:11:04 Well, no.
Alan Gregerson 00:11:05 So think about this. And my guess. Is everyone listening? Probably took a statistics class in high school or college, and they probably remember when the teacher or professor talked about the normal distribution. Remember the curve? That looks kind of like a mountain. And I remember thinking, this is a lot of hocus pocus, though. It’s a 200-year-old idea. I think the formal name is the Gaussian curve. But imagine this and it actually applies. I feel like 10% of people when I suggest to them, we’re actually going to suspend what we know and we’re going to look for brilliant ideas, go, this is awesome. And I believe 10% of people on the other end go, how did I get stuck doing this? This is going to be the worst day of my life. And the other people in the middle are the ones that I think can either go over the hill in the right direction or fall back. And so my challenge is, well, I feel like I want to get the 10% of people to really see the power of it.
Alan Gregerson 00:12:02 I’d like more of the people who are at the top of the hill to come down. But the reality is, you know, and I think you hit the nail on the head. Adults don’t like to change. Okay. So that’s the reality we’re all working with. And so now we tell them, change is really part of growing up, being more of yourself, reaching your potential. And if you’re an organization changes what all of our organizations need to do five years from now, we can’t be the same as we are today. We need to do new things that create new value for our customers. So I think everybody’s got to understand this. But some people are going to resist and others are going to be kicking and screaming. And so we start with the people who are excited about it and hope that they get some of their colleagues engaged?
Andi Simon 00:12:48 Well, I can agree more because we talk about people. But at the end of the day, the brain, the human brain has evolved with us to resist the changes that make it dangerous for us.
Andi Simon 00:13:00 You know? And the other part is it uses 25% of our body’s energy and it wants to be efficient. The most efficient thing you can do is habits. The least efficient thing you can do is learn something new. It creates all kinds of pain in the brain as you’re learning something new. And so the consequences are when we talk about people, it’s their brains that get in the way of beginning to see things and I but, but it is very interesting talking to you because it’s unusual to have someone on the podcast who I can so relate to. And I bet you have the joy when you get a client to see something and the agony of how come I can see it and they can’t see it. What am I looking at? That’s so different, right?
Alan Gregerson 00:13:44 Well, so that’s the thing. So of course we’re looking for a ha moment. I’m looking in. I think you’re looking for the people we work with to have a moment to suddenly say, oh, I get it.
Alan Gregerson 00:13:53 I understand why we’re doing this. but the reality is, I’m not asking people to change entirely right away. And I feel like people don’t understand that is we can be grounded in what we’re good at. But we need to keep creating experiments and testing the new things we need to be good at. And those experiments give us some comfort level. I don’t jump off the diving board before finding out how deep the pool is. but then I say, okay, and I’m probably not going to do a world class dive initially, but I can go to the end of the diving board and then just jump in if I know the water is deep enough to support me. So I want people to test what they’re able to do. think about this. people go to work each day and they say, we’re pretty Successful. Let’s kind of keep at what we’re doing and that’s fine for this Monday. But next Monday the world will be a little bit different. And a year from Monday, the world is going to be super different.
Alan Gregerson 00:14:57 So let me start to test the things that are going to get me to where I need to be. And, you know, I’m not going to learn a new language in a day. I’m not going to play a musical instrument, you know, and go to Lincoln Center in a day. But if I make an investment and start to go there, then as the world’s changing, I’m going to meet the world where it is.
Andi Simon 00:15:20 You know, I want to go over the, you know, the six essential skills in a moment. But we always preach that you need two things. One, you need a vision, a visualization of where you might like to go. So you got to really, you know, ideate a bit, and begin to draw pictures. And people like to see if they can’t see it, they can’t be it. So once you get a visualization of some transformation today, you’re like this. So from here to there and all of a sudden tomorrow we’re going to be like that, so you can imagine it.
Andi Simon 00:15:47 But what are the small wins that are going to get you there? So if you have a small step, the ones you’re talking about and you can celebrate them, the mind remembers the celebration. You’d be amazed that when you celebrate it, remembers it. And if you don’t celebrate it, well, it can’t be very important. We’ll let it go by. So it’s very interesting as you’re discovering. I love to hear it. Go ahead please.
Alan Gregerson 00:16:09 Well, no, no, no, but you’re exactly right. So we need to make progress. But the other thing you said, which is vitally important, is whether we’re an individual or we’re an organization, we need to have a clear purpose. And that purpose guides us. We need to have a direction we’re going to in the absence of that, then it doesn’t make sense to us why we need to change. We don’t see the new learning that’s involved that we have to be part of. And so I always say to people, it’s the first thing if I think about the six things that are key, the first thing I always say is Find something worth doing, something that you wake up in the morning excited to make happen.
Alan Gregerson 00:16:48 And if you can do that now, you’re on the way to then saying, what are the gaps and what I need to know? Or what are the new ideas I need to have tied to that purpose? You know, I’m often asked as an innovation consultant, can I help people to be innovative? And I say, actually, in the absence of purpose, we can come up with lots of ideas, but they don’t matter. And so we want to figure out what we want to be best at, the impact we want to have in the world, and then we figure out how to make that happen.
Andi Simon 00:17:17 I’m curious. We’ll get to your six major essential skills in a moment. But you work with, I’m sure, for profits and not for profits. And the mindsets are different. the methodology work equally well, or do you have to modify it in some fashion for the different reasons or purposes that they have?
Alan Gregerson 00:17:37 Well, yeah. So I’ve had the opportunity to work with like 400 different companies and organizations around the world.
Alan Gregerson 00:17:44 are the. I would say at their best. They’re trying. They’re all trying to accomplish something that matters to them. And the for-profit world. It could be significant or not. In the nonprofit world, what excites me is people are generally passionate about a purpose. I would say often in the nonprofit world, they’re more purposeful than they are in the corporate world. In the corporate world. Often, it’s made money. We’re in this industry. We can do this in the nonprofit world. It’s, we want to help people with developmental differences to be incorporated in society. We want to help people who have been unhoused to have housing. We want to feed people. So I find those people are really passionate. I think the challenge is that we have to blend the working like a business, innovating like a business with people who are kind of committed to doing something remarkable. I just like anywhere where people really are passionate about what matters to them.
Andi Simon 00:18:45 Well, and that also flips it over to those who are.
Andi Simon 00:18:48 You know, I’ll say for profit world who need to find their purpose and why they matter. Even though you may be making it to make revenue in and profitably, you still need a reason for being because there is no shortage of competitors. So the answer to the question why you? You better tell me something more than I do a good job.
Alan Gregerson 00:19:07 Oh, right. And you need to be the best at what you do. But best is a moving target, right? So I could provide great value to customers today, but the world of business models or customer needs could change. So I have to be different tomorrow. You know, the world is filled with examples, you know, as I think about the evolution of our kids. So they liked fast food. They played a lot of sports. They wanted to go to fast food restaurants. There were all these fast-food restaurants. And then suddenly Chipotle appears. Okay, Chipotle is not like amazing. But Chipotle gives you the sense that it’s kind of fresher, fast food.
Alan Gregerson 00:19:44 And so that’s better. Now they need to up their game. Think about Netflix. I mean, these folks began by mailing you DVDs. That’s pretty kind of crude in retrospect. And it was only after a number of years that they started streaming. And so and then streaming wasn’t good enough because, as you said, you know, their competitors streaming became a commodity. Now they have to create original content. Netflix last year spent $18 billion to create original content, just to have people believe they were better than all the other places they could stream. So the reality is we always have to up our game in business, but we need to pick something. So if Netflix purpose is to create the most compelling entertainment experience, I’m okay with that. Yes. You know, they’re not making guns or blowing up people, so I’m okay with that. But, but in the nonprofit world. I resonate with a lot of their purposes. That’s why I like to volunteer a lot. And in the corporate world, I want people to maximize the value of what they do and do exactly what you said, and that is simply realized I got to be better tomorrow.
Alan Gregerson 00:20:53 Customers, you know, and people say, well, my customers love what I do. And I say, your customers love what you do because they haven’t seen something better. If somebody else creates something better, they’ll leave you in a heartbeat.
Andi Simon 00:21:06 Well, and I always preach that you created the illusion that they’re loyal, but they’re just lazy. And because they don’t like.
Multiple Speakers 00:21:13 It’s hard to change, right? You know, you said it’s hard for adults.
Alan Gregerson 00:21:17 To change.
Multiple Speakers 00:21:18 Your customers. Customers are just customers.
Andi Simon 00:21:21 They understand the limits of what you do, so they accept the positive stuff. But don’t assume that they’re loyal because you are so good. And, you know, assume that you’re constantly having to establish that you are that good to that loyal customer who you want never to leave you. But don’t create an illusion because it’s not true. So now let’s go to your six steps, because I want to make sure people hear the six essential skills to be agile and innovative. Please.
Alan Gregerson 00:21:48 Okay, good.
Alan Gregerson 00:21:49 So let’s step back for a second. And so when I talk about the wisdom of ignorance, I don’t talk about ignorance as being stupidity. You know, we have a lot of stupidity around us. What I talk about is the kind of ignorance that’s actually propelled human progress throughout the course of history, and it’s really at the heart of kind of how scientists work. Scientists aren’t trying to solve for what they already know. Try. Scientists are trying to solve for what they don’t know. So I talk about this idea of enlightened ignorance. And that is, not knowing should motivate me to learn and figure things out. So that’s the background I want people to think about. Now, the six things I’d like everybody to think about and do. The first is I want people and we’ve talked about I want people to be purposeful. The reality is picking a purpose, something you wake up every day determined to be remarkable at whether it’s to solve a problem, whether it’s to do something in your community, whether it is to solve a social problem, create a business opportunity.
Alan Gregerson 00:22:49 Just figure out something you really want to do. So purpose really, really matters. The second is, if I have a compelling purpose now, I need to be curious. So I need to say I don’t have all the answers, but the world has a lot of the answers. And so I need to engage the world and unlock my curiosity to be able to solve my problem in new ways. I share with all of our customers something I’ve discovered, which is kind of not known to people trying to innovate. And that’s what I call the 99% rule. And that is the simple notion that 99% of all new ideas throughout the course of human history have been based on somebody else’s thinking, or something that someone’s found in nature. So think about that if that’s actually how the world has always worked. Why do we sit around in a conference room with a blank sheet of paper, and try to wrack our brains to come up with an original idea? Why don’t we go out to the world, find original ideas, and then use those ideas to create a kind of brilliance? So curiosity allows us to go out there and engage the world head on and, and to see things that are remarkable and then start to make connections.
Alan Gregerson 00:24:02 The third thing is humility. Okay, so imagine this. The world is filled with information that is changing super, super fast. it’s presumptuous for me to assume that I know, I know the answer to questions, or I even know a lot. I mean, I know so little about what there is to know. So as a leader, I should begin each day by saying to my folks, we don’t know all the answers, but together we’re going to figure those out. Humility is kind of vital. If I can’t admit that I don’t know. There’s no way I’m ever going to create a breakthrough, because a breakthrough, by its nature, is something someone hasn’t done before. How can I say that? I know what to do. And so humility is really important. The fourth thing is respect. And so respect is related to humility, but in a really interesting way. And that is I should respect every single person I meet. especially people who have different ideas than I have. And those ideas can come from all kinds of places.
Alan Gregerson 00:25:04 I write in the book about a gentleman I befriended. Actually, I hate to admit it, outside McDonald’s and he was a fellow who was homeless, and he’s sitting out there in one day I come up and I just say, hi, can I buy you a meal? And he says, well, I’d like two McDonald’s apple pies. I, you know, thinking about my mother said to him, well, don’t you want some protein? To which he said, no, I just actually like apple pies. And I said, hey, you’re an adult. That’s your choice. And I got him apple pies and coffee and orange juice. And over several months, I saw him. I would go back to McDonald’s just to sit with him and talk with him and learn from him. He was a fellow who’d been homeless for a few years, but he knew a lot about things that I didn’t know about. First, he was a jazz musician. I loved jazz, but he turned me on to a lot of jazz.
Alan Gregerson 00:25:57 But second, think about it. He knew a lot about being resilient, right? Because he had to each and every day figure out how to get by. I don’t have to do that, you know? so I like to say each day I pass a hundred people who could change my life, but I never take the time to connect with them. And so respect for me is believing that ideas can come from everywhere. Some of those ideas, I seek them out. Some of it is just the serendipity of living. But I need to be more serendipitous. And I do that by connecting with new people and respecting what they have to say. That’s the fourth thing. The fifth thing is what I call future focus. And that is we can’t predict the future exactly, but we can pay attention to the tea leaves. And the way we do it is we get out and we engage the world. We go to modern art museums. We walk through kind of hip and trendy neighborhoods. We go to new restaurants; we connect with new people.
Alan Gregerson 00:26:56 We listen to new music. We do all kinds of things. and that allows us to get clues about where the future is going that we can use to adapt what we need to do. We say to ourselves, I got to get to that place. And so I want people to think about that, because if I’m not future focused, I’m going to live in the present or even the past. I’m never going to adapt my skills or the skills of our organization to get there. So I want people to think about it. And then the sixth thing, which I have to be honest, when I wrote this book and I shared the draft with my wife and she said, oh, you can’t write that. The sixth is we all need to be paranoid. And so and so. She said, no, that’s not a good thing. And I said, actually, being paranoid is a fantastic thing. And here’s what I mean by what I talk about is the skill or gift of paranoia. And that is we all have to behave.
Alan Gregerson 00:27:49 And I think you mentioned it a few moments ago, we all have to behave as though there’s someone following us, okay? In our careers, our skills become outdated in our businesses. There’s somebody out there trying to eat our lunch, and it doesn’t take them that long. Today. You know, in a world of technology to eat our lunch, you know, most companies that I work with say, well, this is what my key competitors are doing. And I say, that’s fantastic, but your competitor in the future won’t be someone in your industry. It’ll be somebody from somewhere else who’s come up with a better idea for how to do they think about the taxicab business. So, you know, it used to be we’d stand on a quarter in New York, Chicago, San Francisco, and hope that a cab drove by us. Then two guys who weren’t in the taxicab business have trouble finding a cab in Paris on a winter night. They suddenly realized that there’s something called GPS technology, the global positioning systems, that enables someone with a car to connect with somebody who needs a ride.
Alan Gregerson 00:28:51 And suddenly Uber is formed, and the world of getting a ride has changed forever. I don’t have to wait for a car now. but those were people that ate the lunch of the taxicab business. Taxi cabs simply said, what’s another cab company doing? So I want people to think about. And we’re all wired to be paranoid. Let’s be honest. As kids, we had nightmares. As adults, I think we still have nightmares on occasion. And so I want us to think about it in a positive way. The more we recognize all the potential threats that could come, the more we can do something remarkable.
Andi Simon 00:29:29 The whole point of your six pieces here. Your six skills are to get people out of their comfort zone and begin to understand how to thrive in fast changing times. Is that what I hear you saying?
Alan Gregerson 00:29:42 Well, exactly, yes. So what I’m trying to get people to think about and organizations to think about is what are the skills that we have to have so we don’t get blindsided, that we remain relevant, and we find joy and energy in the things that we do.
Alan Gregerson 00:29:58 And I believe that it’s actually awesome to be curious about something that really matters to us. I’m super excited about that, and I’d love everybody who listens to realize if there’s something that matters to you, why not wander around and search for brilliance, then create your own best thinking? So I think it’s vital, you know. And I don’t know that everybody realizes how fast the world is changing. I mean, they talk about AI a lot, but I don’t think they realize the world is changing fast and we can either just get with the program or create the program.
Andi Simon 00:30:35 And you know it is. You don’t have to look far to begin to get out of what you’re comfortable with. So as an anthropologist, I wander a lot. And I’m curious, but more than anything, if you are in seeing dots turn into trend lines, you don’t see the changes that are happening all around you, and you know it is. It goes from one to many. I have a client who has services for autistic kids and special needs and my goodness, I have one client, one cousin who has a son who has special needs.
Andi Simon 00:31:12 That was the one. Now I have a place that has lots. And then you do some analysis and you realize that it’s a growing enormous field, and then you have another woman who’s handling it by going into homes from 0- to 3-year-old with people. And then you realize this is Huge. What’s happening? I don’t know, but I do know that it is huge and the trend is not going to go back. And I don’t care what. Until we understand why, it’s going to be a really interesting time to watch what’s happening. you know, some of the other trends, the amount of folks who are getting dementia is getting younger and many more. And what is that from? And you can tell me it’s the food we’re eating. Okay. how do I change everything that I’m eating to avoid it? And what are the human transformations going on now, apart from just AI and machine learning and blockchain and the fourth industrial revolution, the stuff that’s happening well beyond that, that we have to pay attention to and at least be aware of if we’re not going to do something about it.
Andi Simon 00:32:18 Am I right?
Alan Gregerson 00:32:19 Well, I think you’re right. And I think it’s easy to simply think that there’s all this technology and that’s the main changes. But there also are a lot of human and social things going on. you know, and so we simply need to look at younger generations to see what matters to them. We simply need to think about the fact that after Covid hit, a lot of people had the choice to go back to work but decided not to go back into an office. So there are all these things that are happening, and we need to understand those in order to find our place and be most compelling, and in order to find the place of the businesses that we’re part of, are the organizations we’re part of. I think the other thing to think about is, and I don’t know the answers to some of the things that you’ve suggested. I’ve got to believe that ultra-processed foods and chemicals and all kinds of things have probably made it so we’re sicker than we’ve ever been before.
Alan Gregerson 00:33:18 I’ve got to believe that people in other eras, you know, we talk about I’m going to buy organic food now until the 1930s. All food was organic. You know, and then we started adding chemicals to food. And now we’ve gone to extremes. But I only need to wander around and look at places where people are healthier. To have an idea of some things that I could be doing better in terms of how I eat, how I connect with people, how I can stay purposeful. So I just believe there are lots of clues. And so we can either just hide and say, this is the way the world is, or we can say, I’m going to kind of sort it out and kind of navigate a path that allows me to make a difference in the future.
Andi Simon 00:34:03 Well, and I love your last sentence there that allows me to make a difference for the future. And it takes a person one step at a time in order to make a better world. And we can’t tackle everything, but we can certainly try to, I don’t know, create an environment for ourselves, those who we care about, our family, our friends and people ask me, how are you? I said, I’m happy.
Andi Simon 00:34:25 I said, because it’s contagious. I’d rather tell you I’m happy. I can tell you other things, but. But at the end of the day, be happy and smile. You see, when you smile, I smile. And it’s important that we understand that we are communal people. We want others. And loneliness is one of the things that I find unfortunate. Because no reason to be lonely. Go talk to strangers if you have to. But I do think this is so interesting to listen to you. I’m watching you try to tell me something, please.
Multiple Speakers 00:34:56 Well, no.
Alan Gregerson 00:34:57 But tied to what you said. I would love people to think about. Even in the crazy world, we can’t control everything. But we can wake up each day and try to make the life of another person better. Yes, and that can be through volunteer work. That can be the life of one of our customers, that can be one of our coworkers. We have the power to do that each and every day.
Alan Gregerson 00:35:19 I think the smile is important. I think listening is important. I think trying to meet people where they are as important, but I really want people to think about, that that’s really part of you having the mindset that you’re really going to need to have to do remarkable things. And then I want everybody to understand we actually all have the potential to make a difference. And I think sometimes, either in our organizations or our personal lives, we get a little bit worn down and we say, I’m just trying to get through the day and I feel like everybody can make a significant difference. And so that’s why I want people to master these skills. I want them to understand it’s well within our grasp. If we can just do a limited number of things as behaviors, as kind of regular things, we have a chance to impact individuals, but we have a chance to do something big.
Andi Simon 00:36:10 You know, I learned something 20 years ago. I had a horse roll over on me and broke my back, gave me a great concussion.
Multiple Speakers 00:36:15 Right.
Andi Simon 00:36:15 And so but I’m in reasonably good shape and my memory is reasonably functional. But I learned something. Every day is a gift. And when you wake up, don’t waste it. It’s a time to do something that is kind for someone else because you don’t have any idea what tomorrow. I mean, I’ve been riding since I was a little kid, and that was the first time I had one of those. Oh my goodness, because I didn’t, I didn’t know what happened and nobody else did either. Now, I think it’s time we wrap up, though, because you and I could talk about this a great deal more and I’m enjoying it. It’s unusual to find someone who thinks in similar ways to the degree that I do, and I don’t feel weird about it. You know, change is really your friend. make it your friend. And remember, there’s a wisdom of not knowing. And it’s okay to say I’m not really sure. And don’t just look up on chat the answer to that question.
Andi Simon 00:37:08 Let’s go explore. Let’s go see what people are doing instead of using you. Let’s go see what people around you are finding is so much fun. Pickleball. I haven’t figured that one out yet, but it is a time for change. Let’s give them a couple of things to walk away with, if you don’t mind. Alan.
Alan Gregerson 00:37:24 Well, no. So that’s great, I appreciate it. And thanks again for the conversation. I want people to think about a few things, but most importantly, I want people to think about that. You don’t have all. You don’t have to have all the answers to do something remarkable. You just have to be committed to trying to figure it out. And then you get started that you don’t have to change dramatically tomorrow, but you should put yourself on a path to getting better and better and read you more and more of your potential each and every day. And so that’s why I think about these six skills and why they’re vital. I also want people to think about that, even if they’re expert in something.
Alan Gregerson 00:38:02 The expertise they have probably isn’t going to be where they create a breakthrough. They’re probably going to create a breakthrough by finding something that matters and looking at it with fresh eyes and having an open mind about it. And so I think that’s vitally important to people. So if I were to tell or not tell but suggest to people what to do. Find a purpose that matters to you. Get out and explore the world. And exploring the world can be just your town. Or it can be. Take a trip somewhere. Pay attention to everything around you. That’s remarkable. Make notes about what’s remarkable and think about how those remarkable ideas could be used to solve your problem or create your opportunity. Connect with people you don’t normally connect with. connect with some of them just by saying, I want to connect with people and go to lectures or things with people that you think might be interesting. Connect with others just by serendipity. Start talking to people. I want people also to realize the future is happening right outside our windows or our doors, and we miss it by just going to work every day, when we should spend some time wandering around, engaging the world, and paying attention.
Alan Gregerson 00:39:14 You know, I just feel paying attention is like the start of connecting dots and doing remarkable things.
Andi Simon 00:39:20 I think it’s wonderful. A friend of mine that we used to travel with, passed away a bit ago, but he would go into a hotel, and before I knew it, he had a bunch of friends, and I once said, so how do you do that? I just talked to people, and next thing I knew, we were all just talking to people. And now there’s never a time where I’m not trying to find someone, we could learn something from and engage with for a moment and talk to people, and they find they really like to be talked to. It’s not scary. And the other thing that I want to play on, what you said is don’t do it just with more of people who are just like you, you know? Watch out for that tour bus when you go traveling, you know, go wander on your own and don’t worry about it. You’ll get there. It’s okay.
Andi Simon 00:40:04 So.
Multiple Speakers 00:40:04 Oh, no, I.
Alan Gregerson 00:40:04 Think absolutely we should connect with people who are different than us. And I, I really feel like we should also say that you don’t have to be really extroverted to connect with other people. You just do it on your own terms. You know, some of my closest relationships and I actually other than doing podcasts. I’m a relatively introverted guy. Is he? Find the right settings in which you feel comfortable, often in a setting where it’s something you like to do, where you can just kind of turn to somebody else and say, why are you at this movie? Or why do you like this restaurant so you don’t have to be extroverted? We all can connect with other people. We all can learn from other people.
Andi Simon 00:40:44 And, and when you begin to learn is I really enjoy it. They learn for the moment. They want to talk to you, to you for no reason other than why not? This has been such fun. Alan, thank you so much.
Andi Simon 00:40:55 When will that book? The book will be out October 14th October 14th.
Alan Gregerson 00:41:00 The book will be out. It will be available. I like to say it will be available wherever thoughtful books are sold. So if you have a favorite bookseller, certainly ask them to order it for you. If you prefer to shop online, simply do that. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Go to my website allen.com. Whatever way you’d like to connect. I like to connect with strangers and so please feel free to.
Multiple Speakers 00:41:24 Connect it on.
Andi Simon 00:41:25 And I have a hunch he’s going to help you do what we want to do on the brink, which is get off the brink to help you see, feel, and think in new ways. A fresh lens so you can begin to challenge all of those assumptions you believe to be true. Remember the only truth. There is no truth. The only thing that you have to do is keep asking yourself, why do I believe this? And how can I begin to model it in some fashion to help us do better? my last thoughts for all of you who have such become loyal fans, I’m honored that we become the 18th among the top 100 podcasts about the topic of change.
Andi Simon 00:42:01 Seems like it fits for today. My three books are all available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and we’re fine. Books are sold. On the brink was the catalyst for this one in it, or eight clients who got stuck or stalled, and a little anthropology helped them get off the break, and they began to see things through a fresh lens, I think. All my clients are out exploring and they go, right? I said, well, you want to hear from me. Come here from your customers. Go watch what’s actually happening, see how they’re using your tool or not, and you’ll be amazed at what you can learn about how you’ve created your illusion of what’s all real. But it’s not. In any event, my tagline is from observation to innovation. I know Allen will appreciate that, but I have a hunch all of you will as well. You’re welcome to reach out to us or to Alan, and LinkedIn is our favorite place for meeting people. I wish we could talk to them on there instead of just text.
Andi Simon 00:42:52 Alan, you have a final thought you’d like to say?
Alan Gregerson 00:42:55 No. I appreciate the chance to be on. I really love the conversation. I believe everyone listening has the potential to do remarkable things and to make the world a better place and to make their businesses a better place. I just would love them to do it.
Andi Simon 00:43:10 And I agree. And when they do it, celebrate the mine loves a little celebration. I’ll say goodbye to everybody. Have a wonderful day. Bye now.
