What happens when two powerful women—one a psychologist devoted to leadership transformation and the other a CEO who grew up in a family-run business—join forces to rethink what it means to lead? They discover the “Sixth Level” of Leadership!
On this episode of On the Brink, Stacy Feiner, PsyD and Rachel Wallis Andreasson, MBA invite us to imagine leadership not as a position of power, but as a practice rooted in purpose, connection and care.
The Birth of the Sixth Level
Dr. Stacy Feiner, a high-performance psychologist and coach, has long focused on helping family and mid-market companies unlock the emotional dynamics that drive sustainable success. Her fascination with human potential began early—her mother introduced her to the groundbreaking Self-in-Relation theory at Wellesley’s Stone Center, which challenged male-centered models of psychology and placed women’s experiences at the center of understanding human behavior.
From that foundation grew The Sixth Level: Capitalize on the Power of Women’s Psychology for Sustainable Leadership, co-authored with Rachel Wallis Andreasson, Kathy Overbeke, DBA, and Jack Harris, PhD. The book expands on the belief that women’s relational intelligence—empathy, collaboration, and the ethic of care—is not a deviation from leadership excellence but its evolution.
From Gas Station to $2 Billion Company
Rachel Wallis Andreasson’s story grounds those ideas in lived experience. The daughter of a gas-station owner on Route 66, she watched her father grow one small shop into a company now approaching $2 billion in annual sales. He modeled three values that remain central to her leadership: a strong work ethic, genuine care for people, and shared ownership through open communication.
“When my dad walked into one of our stores,” she recalls, “he didn’t just check the numbers—he asked employees for their opinions. And then he used their ideas.”
Rachel worked for her family business for 24 years, rising to CEO and overseeing more than 1,100 employees. She is most proud of the cultural integration of the largest and most strategic acquisition of the company’s history. Rachel builds cultures where people feel seen, heard, and trusted. Her philosophy mirrors her father’s wisdom—lead by example, connect with authenticity, and invite others to own the company’s success.
Watch our video on Sixth Level Leadership here
The Four Core Differentiators of Sixth-Level Leadership
At the heart of The Sixth Level are four principles that originate in women’s social-psychology and form the basis of transformational leadership:
- Mutuality — Two-way empathy and shared purpose that align people behind a common vision.
- Ingenuity — Creative problem-solving that benefits the collective, not just the individual.
- Justness — Inclusion, accountability and equity built on transparency and trust.
- Intrinsic Motivation — Leading from within, not for external reward or authority.
These are not soft skills—they are strategic capabilities that strengthen performance, retention, and resilience. “Accountability,” Feiner explains, “doesn’t start at the end of a project. It begins at the beginning, as a promise we make to each other to achieve success together.”
A Story of Transformation
One of the book’s most vivid case studies features Lisa, president of a rural Missouri hospital. Stepping into her role during the height of COVID-19, she found a demoralized staff, fragmented teams, and exhausted caregivers.
Instead of imposing control, Lisa began by listening. She conducted open “snack-cart sessions” with employees, asking questions, sharing food, and gathering stories. From those conversations came a rallying cry—One Heart, One Team.
Lisa modeled the change she wanted to see, shadowing every department, empowering cross-functional collaboration, and celebrating ingenuity at every level. The results were astonishing: record financial performance, unprecedented patient-satisfaction scores, and a palpable sense of unity across the hospital.
“Transformation,” says Andreasson, “is tangible. When you walk into that hospital today, you feel the caring culture. You feel ‘One Heart, One Team.’ ”
Beyond Self-Awareness to Relational Awareness
Feiner believes traditional leadership training—often built on male norms—emphasizes self-control and individual performance. The Sixth Level expands that frame to relational awareness: how leaders build trust, reciprocity, and shared accountability.
“We’ve been taught that leadership is about dominance and hierarchy,” she says. “But sustainable success comes from mutuality—the capacity to care for others while driving results. Everyone can learn it. It’s a human capability.”
A Model for All Leaders
Although the book is rooted in women’s social-psychology, both authors stress it is not for women only. Men thrive in Sixth Level environments too. “Command-and-control cultures haven’t served anyone,” Feiner notes. “When we bring the full picture—empathetic and analytical thinking together—we create workplaces where everyone can flourish.”
Andreasson agrees: “Culture is the secret weapon. The Sixth Level isn’t a theory—it’s a roadmap for building engaged teams, inclusive organizations, and caring communities.”
Rethinking What Leadership Looks Like
As I reflected at the end of the conversation, the Sixth Level calls us to re-imagine leadership “not as power, but as purpose, connection, and deep relational intelligence.” It’s an invitation for all leaders—men and women alike—to claim a model that validates empathy, communication, and community as powerful drivers of performance.
Perhaps the truest measure of success is what both Feiner and Andreasson have modeled themselves: leading with heart, lifting others, and proving that when we care for people, performance naturally follows.
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The full text is below:
Andi Simon 00:00:02 Welcome to On the Brink with Andy Simon. Thank you for joining this podcast today. I so love to bring you interesting people to help you do what an anthropologist might do see, feel and think in new ways so that you can change. Our job is to get you off the brink, and what I want you to do is understand the stories others can tell you, that can share with you new insights and ideas and in the process help you say, I can do that. Or ooh, I don’t have to accept that the way it’s always been. So I have two extraordinary women with me today, Doctor Stacey Feiner and Rachel Wallace Andreasson. Now, Rachel came to me through Washington University, which is near and dear to our hearts and through, through Rachel came Stacey. They are going to bring you some insights from their new book, The Sixth Level. But first let me introduce them and tell you why you should listen and listen carefully, and then we’ll get into the detail of what we’re going to talk about today.
Andi Simon 00:01:05 I’m going to start with Doctor Stacy Fein. She’s a psychologist and a high-performance coach who supports leaders, especially in mid-market and family-owned businesses. And I grew up in a family-owned business. I understand the complexities of it, and her job is to resolve emotionally charged dynamics and drive sustainable value. With roots in clinical therapy at University of New Hampshire Investor and Corporate Experience at Merrill Lynch, KeyBanc and BDO. She now leads her own firm founded in 2018. She’s an entrepreneur, an investor, why not? And an author of Talent Mindset, and she’s co-author of The Sixth Level. She’s also a recipient of the Hobart and William Smith Peace Prize. She combines a wonderful pro-growth pro health mindset. We’re going to talk about mental fitness today. We’re going to talk about invisible forces. You’re going to hear about ways that you can get out of your own handicap and get forward because you’re full of brilliance. Women listen carefully. Rachel came to me through our connections at WashU, and I’m delighted to have met her and now share her story with you all.
Andi Simon 00:02:13 She brings leadership experience grounded in her family run business. Now, I always tell you, I grew up in a family firm. It’s very, very interesting. But she became the leader of it. She’s an acquisition architect, a CEO overseeing 1100 team members, and she was the first woman president of the Missouri State Association for the convenience Store Industry. Her family firm. And she earned her peer nominated leadership award. She’s also served as executive director of Congregation Temple Israel, and she leads on several boards, including a bank. She is co-author of this great book, Sixth Level. But I think what’s so interesting about this book is that you take a woman who has been in a family firm, a little bit of my background and a woman who’s been an academic but also applying it into business. You merge them together with some others, and you have this amazing moment where all of a sudden something comes out of him that’s bigger than either of them alone, or they are so excited to share it with you.
Andi Simon 00:03:14 I’m going to let them talk a little bit about how it all came about. And so my story with Doctor Steiner, pardon me, Doctor Feiner and Stacey give me. But Stacey talk about a little bit about how you and Rachel came along this journey because it will help us set the stage.
Stacey Feiner 00:03:32 Lovely. Thanks for having us, Andi. It’s really wonderful to be on the podcast and we do love this topic. It’s probably become my favorite topic in the whole wide world is the sixth level capitalize on the power of women’s psychology for sustainable leadership. The book came out in 2023 2024. We were getting on the map in 2025. We are working on getting the model adopted in companies and family enterprises in institutions like higher education. And we’re well on our way. So, Rachel and I, I think we met in 2013. we met in a professional context. I was working with her, she and her family business as, Rachel was preparing to be the CEO of her family’s business. And we had a really very eye opening and successful endeavor together.
Stacey Feiner 00:04:26 And Rachel is a phenomenal leader. And so by the time we were working through all of that, we had lots of things in common. Rachel comes to this, these conversations and this these concepts from an operating business, from a family business, from a multi-generational legacy. And I also come to that. My mother introduced me to the theory that is promising the book called Self in relation theory. It was brought, it was researched, and it was designed in 1971, spearheaded by Doctor Jean Baker Miller, and it was presented at the Stone Center at Wellesley College in Boston. And in high school, my mother took me to the Wellesley College Stone center, and I participated in the development in the working papers, the of the theory. And it just stayed with me for, for the duration. And then we finally wrote a book together with Doctor Kathy Overbeck and Doctor Jack Harris. Together we wrote the book.
Andi Simon 00:05:35 I’m not going to say you were ten when you went to do that, but it was.
Stacey Feiner 00:05:39 Complete.
Andi Simon 00:05:40 And very impactful moment for you. It’s interesting. I truly believe in chance and serendipity, but this sounds like your mother had a great influence on bringing you, I don’t know, to see things through a fresh lens at an early age.
Stacey Feiner 00:05:53 Absolutely.
Andi Simon 00:05:54 And that formed the foundation for what you’re doing. Let me stay with you just for a moment. Then I’ll come to Rachel. You bring a psychologist lens to this. Is that a particular lens to the emotional patterns showing up in women as they’re navigating all these complex places here that we’re working with? Just give us a little bit about the perspective that you bring, and then I’ll switch to Rachel, please.
Stacey Feiner 00:06:16 Oh, well a couple. So thank you, Andi, that’s such a beautiful that you captured that those words that I mentioned and are giving me a chance to explore that with everybody. But so what I learned at the Stone center with my mom sitting next to me once a month on Wednesdays when they did, they presented their research.
Stacey Feiner 00:06:36 I learned three things at that time. One I learned is that women are not the opposite of men, that we are complementary.
Andi Simon 00:06:45 Oh. Thank you. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Please continue.
Stacey Feiner 00:06:49 I learned that women have a different psychology than men. And I learned that women by themselves are full human beings. And those things were very empowering to me. When I got to college, I met Doctor Jack Harris. He was my sociology professor. He is also a co-author of the book, and he provided us with a lens to the sociology of humanity and people. And that also influenced me dramatically in the course of the rest of the course of my life. with regard to women and women, psychology and emotion. yes, absolutely. There’s a unique, and, and a fascinating opportunity to embark in this. Yeah. On this topic is that it wasn’t until 1971 that women’s unique psychology was studied from the lens of women. Prior to 1971, all psychological research was done by male researchers on male subjects.
Stacey Feiner 00:07:54 And those findings were then, I wrote, erroneously generalized to women. And subsequently from that time, women have been a deviation to the norm. And not only are we deviations to the norm, but we are also therefore not taken seriously. We are not learned from, we’re not listened to, and we’re not represented in the research. But that is actually true of all traditional disciplines. Women’s perspective, women’s lens and women’s experiences has been left out of the reality that we’re all living in. And those are the invisible norms that are really, really hard to challenge. And I’ll just add one more piece is the book intends to ask the reader to step outside of the current norms and the reality that we’re living in and look inward and decide what we like and what we don’t like, and reshape our reality towards the ethic of care, rather towards the tendency for dominance. And without the ethic of care. We don’t have a system of justice. When we don’t have a system of justice, we end up having decisions and relationships built on dominance, which are exploitive by their very nature.
Andi Simon 00:09:12 You know, we are primates and I as you’re talking, I keep thinking of us as hairless primates. But you know, this dominance, the control. You know, I have a leadership academy I’ve been doing for seven years with a client. And as I work with the men and women, they lead differently. And leaders need followers. And the followers are also different. And if you don’t understand the complexity of the guys and the gals and how to appeal to them in different ways and emotionally relate to them in different ways, you really can’t. They won’t follow you. And this is all in the conversations that we have. The words we choose create the world’s we live in. And this becomes important to understand. Which leads me to Rachel, because you grew up in a family firm, I must say. Nobody was happy when I abdicated my responsibilities. And I said, no, no, no. I’m going to get a PhD in anthropology. And my grandmother rolled her eyes and said, you’re going to do what? And I can’t tell you.
Andi Simon 00:10:14 My father and mother did, but I grew up. I’m thinking that that was what my friend my track was, and I didn’t take it. But you did. And you turned it into something really quite glamorous and illustrious for yourself. How did that shape your view of leadership, and how did it shape your view of how to manage others? You had 1100 folks, you know, how do you build a community that people care about each other? What kind of wisdom can you share with our audience so they can learn from you? Is that a good question to start?
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:10:45 Beautiful question and it gives me a chance to also honor my dad’s legacy, because he was the founder of our company, because his dad died early in his life and he started working in a guest. He started working prior to a gas station. But when he was 16, he started working in a gas station. And then after he got out of the service, he ended up buying one gas station on route 66 in Cuba, Missouri that was doing about $100,000 a year.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:11:14 And today our company will do almost $2 billion a year. And now we have even more employees. But I think what my dad instilled in me were three things, a strong work ethic. He worked hard every day. But he also I at his funeral, people said, your dad worked so hard, but you also felt like he was your best friend because he just knew how to connect with people. So it was a strong work ethic. It was a connection to people. He valued people. He valued the work they did for our company. He was grateful for their effort that they put forth. And, and yeah, he just, Yeah, genuinely, wanted them to feel like they were owners in our company. So he set up open financials and Open book, and employees today will still comment that your dad would come into the convenience store and ask me my opinion on the remodel, and I thought he was just being nice. But then, you know, the plans come out and my ideas and the plans.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:12:19 So those three things were instilled and I guess what I’ve taken away from it, I feel like my whole life I have just tried to lead by example, lead in those ways that he set those foundational values, and in what I would love to see in the future is just a whole army of people leading by example, because, you know, there’s a million leadership books out there, and a lot of them are theoretical. A lot of them don’t even, are based in theory and don’t really even tell you how to do it. And I think, you know, we are faced with two major problems today. one is that good performers typically get promoted. You know, even we have sales associates. So if you can give great customer service, you’re smiling, you’re showing up on time, and you’re doing quality work. You’re probably we’re going to ask if you want to move up in the company. And it is our responsibility to not only teach you the technical things, like the additional responsibilities of paperwork or inventory, but the most critical element is how do you lead a team of people? Because just because I am a strong person and a strong have a strong work ethic, it doesn’t mean I can lead others.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:13:35 And today, people are faced with so much more complex challenges today because of Covid, because of hybrid locations and hybrid positions, because of mental illness, because of, AI and technology, there are so many more complex problems. And really, you know, Stacey helped me at a time in my life where I, we say, I was on not on the brink. I was on the ledge. And Stacy helped me work out of that. And I do feel like the sixth level is a culmination of more than 22 people’s work in the sixth level that not only tells you how to lead in a in a in a way with the ethic of care. but it gives you examples of how it has been done.
Andi Simon 00:14:28 Well, you or Stacey, are there some I want to get into? You said something. Two things. You don’t want to be academic and simply preach. There’s something here that’s very actionable. but usually people understand a story better than the abstract. who took you to. Would like to give us some illustrative cases that you’ve worked on where people were able to change even yourself, change the way something was going by changing the way they were leading others to get there.
Andi Simon 00:15:00 I mean, I have some ideas too, but I’d rather listen to your thoughts about, you know, illustrative companies that were in the, you know, my book on the Brinks about stuck or stall companies who couldn’t see their way out of it. You mean Stacey, would you like to. And then I’ll come back to Rachel. How’s that.
Stacey Feiner 00:15:15 Sure. Sure. so I’ll say that the sixth level, the book, it’s also a collaborative. So we also do consulting and coaching and training and such. But the book specifically is really a layered book. So Rachel was mentioning there are 16 case studies, 16 narratives from 16 individual women who are executives. They’re Entrepreneurs, their owners of their companies, and they talk through their experience being six level leaders. And these were blind kind of studies. They shared their stories, and ultimately, they proved the theory. And the theory also proved and gave a name to this leadership style. one of the stories, is Elaine Russell, Realty. She is an executive director of a non-for-profit in Akron, Ohio.
Stacey Feiner 00:16:13 And, she talks about accountability. And she had this really, very unusual and ingenious way of talking about accountability. She says accountability doesn’t start at the end. It’s not a thing you do at the end of an event or a project or an initiative, or at the end of the year when you’re doing performance reviews. Accountability starts at the very beginning of an initiative. Accountability sets the expectations but also raises the requirements and the promise to each other to accomplish the goal collectively for success at the end. And I think that, you know, if I if I were just to stop there, I think that’s there four core differentiators that that make up the six level that are originate in women’s psychology. There is mutuality, ingenuity, justness and intrinsic motivation. And I would say I don’t I, I don’t.
Multiple Speakers 00:17:16 Remember what.
Andi Simon 00:17:17 Say them again.
Stacey Feiner 00:17:19 Mutuality ingenuity justness and intrinsic motivation.
Andi Simon 00:17:28 That’s terrific. Go ahead finish your thought and then we’ll get into them a little more detail.
Multiple Speakers 00:17:32 They all.
Stacey Feiner 00:17:33 They.
Multiple Speakers 00:17:33 What they all.
Stacey Feiner 00:17:34 Have in common, other than they are born from women’s psychology, is they represent the ethic of care and emotional reciprocity. I share Elaine’s story. I don’t know what chapter she’s in. We have four different chapter sets of chapters that represent those four core differentiators, but I will. But I do believe that her perspective on accountability is represented by ingenuity, and ingenuity is the ability to solve complex problems with novel solutions to serve the interests of many. So that’s an example of six level leadership.
Andi Simon 00:18:11 Good. We’ll come back to that in a moment. I have some thoughts to share. But Rachel, an illustration even your own or someone other cases in you have 16 of them.
Multiple Speakers 00:18:19 Yes.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:18:21 I do have I do have a chapter in the book that’s about the family business, but I’d prefer to share Lisa’s story because, Lisa is still president of her hospital. That’s in a rural Missouri. And when she, she had worked for this hospital for a long time.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:18:37 But when she became president, it was on the heels of Covid and there was so much, isolation felt by the staff, not only because they had to wear the PPE or PPE equipment, but also just because, you know, they weren’t operating in teams anymore. They were they were isolated. They were six feet apart. They were separated and they were exhausted. I mean, they were covering shifts for so many other people. They were seeing members of their community die. I mean, they were just very disheartened. So she walked into the situation, became the leader, saw these problems. And I’ll just restate the four core differentiators that that Stacy did. Because Lisa started with intrinsic motivation. She really wanted to see this hospital thrive. She knew the team was talented, they cared, and they just needed, a person with passion that was willing to go above and beyond and lead by example and so that we called intrinsic motivation. Then Lisa solved the first thing she did was listening to sessions with every employee.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:19:46 So she talked to them. Sometimes it was on the floor when she talked to the hospital workers on the floor, whether they were doctors or nurses or administrative staff. She pushed around a snack cart so she could nourish them while she gathered information. and what she learned from these listening sessions is that, yeah, the team didn’t feel aligned anymore. They. And so she created a rally cry called one Art, one team. And it was more than a poster on the wall. Like she talked about one heart, one team. When somebody didn’t share information with another team member, she redirected them and brought them back and asked the question, is this one heart, one team? And this teamwork and this alignment is what we call Mutuality because it is two-way empathy. It is aligning behind a common purpose. So then Lisa then went on the track of figuring out like how to grow the hospital. What new revenue sources could there be? How could we operate more efficiently? She was able, because of the teamwork, to get more capital dollars.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:20:57 And, and when she continued to go back to that one heart, one team, the whole team started giving their ideas. So, like, for instance, Lisa decided to shadow every single department within the hospital. Once she did that for a year, her staff that was reporting to her, they started shadowing their team members. So it was this flywheel cycle. And then other people started coming up with ideas. How can we improve this? How can we make this better? And then, finally, justness. You know, just making sure there is inclusivity, inclusivity. There’s inclusion. There’s equity, there’s transparency. And then there’s the accountability that Stacy talked with that Elaine really focused on. So when you have this trust that you’re building up, that’s what we call justness. And really, truly, when you put in those four core differentiators, it does act like a flywheel. It builds this culture of wanting to contribute more. This regenerative culture where people are engaged. And it kind of goes back to what my dad tried to create, where people feel like owners, they feel that they have a voice, and they are heard.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:22:16 And so they’re connected to the organization, they’re engaged. And I’m just going to end with today. This hospital has broken historical records, financial records, the highest patient satisfaction scores ever in the hospital’s history, they have received more funding dollars. And today, when I talked to people in the community, they say this hospital is nothing like it was ten years ago, 20 years ago, that you walk in and you feel the caring culture, you feel the one heart, one team, that it is a true transformation. And that’s what we try to instill when we talk about the sixth level. I mean, you can talk about a lot of things, but when you see and feel and the transformation is tangible, there is nothing else like it. And not everybody has experienced transformational leadership. And that’s what we’re trying to explain what it looks like, what it feels like, and teach it so more people can experience it.
Andi Simon 00:23:22 I’m curious, do people like Lisa or this this woman, get trained to do this, or do they just have that caring, emotional approach where they don’t start by telling you, I know you don’t.
Andi Simon 00:23:39 I mean that we understand that all of the day we have this conversation, intelligent conversations talk about what we can do, not what I know, and you should do. I mean, we really understand intuitively how to build collaborative collective communication and creative problem solving. I have a couple of hospitals I’m thinking of who could really use a rethinking of how they go about trying to, because the leadership can’t do anything, really. I mean, it’s always everyone else, and the only way you can get them engaged is to change the conversation. So how do these women learn to do this? Oh, and accountability, by the way, you said something important. It’s not for something. It’s with somebody else. You’re accountable to somebody else. And that’s intuitively not necessarily part of what you’re thinking. I’m accountable for something. No, you’re accountable to someone and it’s a relationship. And so how have they. I mean. And you’re going to try and teach it. So there’s two parts to my question.
Andi Simon 00:24:34 How did they learn it and what are you trying to teach and how do you do it. Who wants to jump in.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:24:40 Bases ready to jump in. And then I’ll pick up.
Multiple Speakers 00:24:42 Yeah.
Stacey Feiner 00:24:43 Again these concepts, they all come together. It’s, you know, it’s a full book and it’s lots of conversations. So these are just kind of the key points. you know, I remember when Rachel and I were doing a presentation in New York City with eight public company executive women executives, and we were talking about the six level. They were truly engaged. It was a roundtable. And as we were talking, one woman at the end of the table said, gosh, I love the sixth level. I love what we’re talking about. It gives me a name for my leadership style. I didn’t know it had a name, but it’s giving me a name, and now I can go to my leadership team, and I can tell them what I’m doing, and I can now get credit. Now I can tell them how I’m leading.
Stacey Feiner 00:25:33 I can explain what I’m doing and why it’s valuable. And I can get credit, and maybe I can get compensated for that. And another woman at the other end of the table said very similar. I love the sixth level. It’s giving a name to my leadership. I, I wasn’t able to explain it before. Now I can tell my team why they love me, because my team loves me. And I can tell them that it’s because I operate from the sixth level. So I think the one of the most valuable things where does it come from is some of us are more have a better, a higher propensity for leading this way than others. We haven’t forsaken our natural tendencies or our natural capacity for, emotional reciprocity, for mutuality, for self in relation. We haven’t we haven’t jeopardized it. We have, however, operated under the radar screen. And so I think, and everybody that’s another thing my team would, our team would really want me to say is everybody can learn it. These are human.
Stacey Feiner 00:26:38 This is a huge this is a human capacity conversation. We all have it in us to be relational. And actually it’s natural. It comes naturally. If you study anything by Niobe Way from NYU, you’ll really, she studies that this is these are these are human qualities that have been, repressed and disqualified and dis and dismissed. And I just will add that, that we can all learn it. It’s a process of toggling, that there are two parts of our brain and one is more analytic, the other is more emotive and emotional, and they one can only act alone so they can’t act together, one suppresses the other. Women have been very well practiced as being both emotive and analytical, and so we toggle very quickly and so we can, more often than our male counterparts, engage in mutually responsive ways. It doesn’t mean men don’t do that. And many men do that because it is a natural human capacity. But it needs to be practiced. It’s a muscle, and women are more practiced at toggling between the analytical and the emotional so that we can bring more, six level leadership, emotional reciprocity, the ethic of care to the relationships that we’re building and realizing at work and in our families and in our communities.
Andi Simon 00:28:13 That’s a great answer. Rachel, your thoughts, how do these women, just then I mean, the Covid created opportunities for unusual successes that came often from people that even their managers didn’t think they could rise to the occasion. This woman transformed to hospital. Tell us about it. How did.
Multiple Speakers 00:28:32 She. Yes.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:28:34 Yes, I think. I do think that I want to go back to. How did this happen? Because it is Lisa’s story. It’s Megan’s story. There are 16 stories of these women, and most had to operate during Covid during, you know, change that had never been experienced before. So women do have a natural propensity for this ingenuity to figure out how to manage these complex problems that really benefit a larger group. But it’s those six level. Like Stacey said at the beginning, it is born out of women’s psychology, but I want to be clear that is not a book for women. Women are demonstrating this six-level leadership because they have a natural propensity for it that we could, you know, talk about all the examples of how we’re socialized differently as men and women, and why women are more naturally leading in this way.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:29:29 I do remember even growing up in my own family business in a male dominated industry, and I, I first worked in operations before I joined the family business at Taco Bell, running, you know, managing operations, and then then got a different job in Florida in the HR department as a training coordinator. And that’s when I kind of fell in love with HR. and then brought that to my company as our family business. But I think, yeah, a lot of times I got comments, that, oh, Rachel, you’re too into the people or you’re too soft or you, you know, I’ve heard comments like, leave your personal problems at the door. Like people should just be focused on work. And that’s the myth that we’re trying to dispel. You cannot disconnect from another human being and lead in an effective way. So I just want to make clear points that the six level is born out of women’s psychology and is very successful and effective at creating engaged teams. Yes, it’s a book for men and women, for all leaders, because everyone can learn the tactics on how to be an effective leader that connects individuals and gets them going in the same direction for a purpose.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:30:51 And, yeah, I like to give the example of just the robot, because I think all of the women’s stories, even though they’re different industries and different sized companies, I always picture like a row team, you know, and everybody has an Oar and they’re all trying to row in one direction. But if you haven’t been taught the basic essence of it, somebody could be turning their paddle backwards, or somebody could be dragging their paddle in the water and you’re not going fast, or maybe you’re even going in a circle. But it does take that person at the front of the boat to get the whole team in sync. And when you are in sync and you all paddles are hitting that water and at the same velocity and pushing through it, and you are flying forward to your destination, it feels so incredible. And I think these stories in the sixth level exhibit, how to get your team rowing in the same direction. And yeah. And it’s for everyone.
Andi Simon 00:31:50 Well, if you were thinking about the audience, men and women, what advice would you give them for trying to find their voice and their power in the world that we’re in today? Some thoughts on advising.
Andi Simon 00:32:04 Yeah. Stacey, you don’t have. You want to wait a second and think you know that Rachel don’t take it on. Come on give me some advice.
Stacey Feiner 00:32:10 Rachel’s ready.
Multiple Speakers 00:32:12 Yeah I.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:32:14 The advice I would give is that there are key principles on how to be an effective leader. And so I think if you go back to the four core differentiators, these are principles. They’re umbrella principles. So it’s not a prescriptive framework. It’s not we give you a recipe and you put in some sugar, a cup of flour and a baking soda and you have a great cake. It is that these are umbrella principles, and there are a lot of tactics to build, for example, mutuality in your organization or to build justness or how to lead by example with this intrinsic motivation, or to get the team, you know, motivated around ingenuity, how to set up all the conditions for this type of culture to thrive there. They are principles and there are tactics. And the tactics have to be relative to your organization.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:33:11 You know, every culture is different, and we’re trying to build an engaged culture. But the way that you go about it is very specific to the people, your industry. Who your competitors are. So there are multiple tactics. And so I would say, yeah, I would just encourage people that if they’re interested. Yeah. To reach out to us. Of course you can read the book and read the stories and see the questions and answers in the back. But at the end of the day, it takes boots on the ground. It takes a different way of thinking. And for that, you know you need help. You need help in learning this new way. And we are here to do that for you if you are interested.
Andi Simon 00:33:55 And Stacy, some thoughts.
Multiple Speakers 00:33:57 Yes.
Stacey Feiner 00:33:58 Advice.
Multiple Speakers 00:33:59 Andy, you’re.
Stacey Feiner 00:34:00 So good at facilitating. Thank you for remembering. I do have a couple things I’ll add on to the question, you know, it’s so interesting when I’ve heard women, you know, in, in coaching sessions and, and they talk about, well, I just did that recruiting work because nobody else was doing it, or I filled that gap at the company because nobody else was doing it.
Stacey Feiner 00:34:26 You know, I that that project was flailing, and I knew the leader didn’t know how to do it very well and that they were trying. And so I just stepped in, and I and I helped them. And I think there are a lot of times when leaders are doing that, just stepping in to help that is really six level leadership. I mean, first of all, it represents intrinsic motivation that you’re intrinsically motivated to do something whether you’re paid or not. It’s needed to be done. But I think historically, women have filled these roles because no one else is doing it, when in fact it is the highest.
Multiple Speakers 00:35:01 Value work.
Stacey Feiner 00:35:03 That needs to be done. And so I think when you ask the question, what do we need? I think the first thing that we need to recognize is that we that there is a leadership style that we’re practicing, and it is called something because I think that it grounds us. We’re not just doing it intuitively because nobody else is doing it. We’re doing it from a very powerful place of emotional connection and intrinsic motivation.
Stacey Feiner 00:35:29 We want this thing to be successful, and we are willing to give our time to it. But in the absence of recognition and incentive or reward, we find ourselves again. I’m repeating myself doing it because nobody else’s. And I think that’s very flawed thinking. And I think it’s because we don’t have a model to rely on. So I think first is know that you’re doing the highest value work when you’re just doing it. Number two, become familiar with the model so that you can claim that you have a leadership model, and it has value and learn what that value is so you can speak to it. And I think I think also, I think part and parcel with that is we are on the shoulders of other leadership models and emotional intelligence is one and it is very familiar to people. We are on the shoulders of emotional intelligence. What emotional intelligence is oriented towards is one’s own self-awareness. But where the sixth level takes it to the next level is the recognition that relational health has to happen, not just personal responsibility and personal self-awareness, but relational awareness.
Stacey Feiner 00:36:59 And so I think that’s the other piece that really comes to bear is the recognition that we are more successful when we engage together, and there is value in that. And so I would just encourage people to continue to recognize that there is a leadership style. They can own it, and they can get more credit for it, and then they can teach others to do it. And that’s how better leadership happens. Oh, in the point that I was trying to make is there is a sociology to this right there. When we perform these four core differentiators, we move. We create healthy social dynamics. And while emotional intelligence is teaching individual responsibility, the six level is teaching the social responsibility to that. And we don’t have a model for that until now.
Andi Simon 00:37:49 Well, it’s so interesting because you’ve given people something, so they don’t think it’s idiosyncratic. You know, I made it up as opposed to I’m doing something that’s more really a style that others do as well. But I would never know about it because I don’t watch them.
Andi Simon 00:38:04 Nobody’s, you know, coached me or mentored me. And I bet even in mentoring people aren’t articulating those four pillars of how to do it or do it better or differently there being practical and practical and so there’s a whole world out there ready for the wisdom that comes from the sixth level. And, you know, Maslow has made a whole model of this all, and it’s well beyond self-actualization. This is about communities and building with purpose and seeing yourself as purposeful. And it’s so interesting. I have two short questions, though, because we’d have to wrap up closely. But what do we do for girls? So girls grow up knowing that they have an unusual and wonderful leadership style that they can build upon and not feel they have to be a tomboy or compete with the guys or be tough and so forth. Stacy, your thought.
Stacey Feiner 00:39:00 Well, you know, I think that reminds me that we are in a crisis of men. Young men are in crisis today. Here’s the broader way of answering the question, and I don’t mean to deflect from it.
Stacey Feiner 00:39:15 I just think there’s a various way of coming at it is, we live in a system that creates false dichotomies. as I mentioned earlier, women and men are taught to not get along to not like each other, to see each other as different and opposite, when in fact we’re complementary. So I think boys and girls, men and women are set up to battle and to be in isolation from each other when I think, in fact, what we really need to recognize is that as human beings, we are invited to the whole continuum of emotional awareness and emotional experience and human experience. So I guess I would say, what do we do with girls? This is probably the same thing we do with boys, right? We teach them how to toggle between their analytical thinking and their emotive thinking, and we encourage them to build this muscle so that they can be more well-rounded human beings. And rather than dominate, manipulate, control. We have the quality of communication, as you say, Andy, and reciprocity and the interests of all.
Stacey Feiner 00:40:39 And again, it is not at the it’s not the compromise individuality. Actually, when you have safe environments to express oneself, you have more opportunity for individuality because the me and women can coexist and not compete. So I guess that’s I really want to bring the conversation of boys and girls together that we are human and we all need to learn the same things.
Andi Simon 00:41:04 Interesting. Yeah. I’m watching Rachel’s face. A thought, my dear.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:41:08 Yeah, I just want to. I had two thoughts on that. I think change is happening and we are all evolving, and, like, Jack Harris tells us, you know, the three Ps for men in the past have been procreate, provide and protect. And today we’re moving those three Ps to partnerships and being a parent and being involved. So I feel like change is happening and it is like Stacey said, it’s we are a human species and we need to find a ways to complement each other to bring it together, which to me, you know, I a lot of times when I was teaching classes in our family business, I would quote Peter Drucker and say, you know, culture eats strategy for breakfast.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:41:51 And that’s true. Culture is the secret weapon. And the sixth level is a book on leadership that’s born out of women’s psychology, but that men and women can use together to validate the natural way of connecting with other human beings. It should not be a dominant. Let me tell you what to do. Just follow my orders. I don’t need to hear your opinion. There are many examples of this failed way that is detrimental not only to individuals but also to companies. And so yeah, culture is a secret weapon. The sixth level tells us how to bring and engage culture together, and that is my wish for us to be able to not only empower the people that we lead, but the teams that we have, the organizations and even the communities that we live in, in our own families. I mean, we can create a culture of success, a culture of inclusion. And that’s what the dream of the sixth level is.
Andi Simon 00:42:49 I tell you; it’s going to be interesting as an anthropologist watching this operate, I was reading recently an article about how the Gen Zs are not doing happy hour.
Andi Simon 00:43:00 They’re not staying around after work now. Women always had a hard time staying around after work, and it’s after work where you hang out over a beer that you begin to build those relationships. And. And now we need new cultures with new structures that encourage people to have relationships. And they’re not just transactional, tactical and practical. Because what you’re talking about is that what I’m doing is because I care about you, and I care about the organization, and it’s not about me, it’s about who we are. And that changes the whole oxytocin in your brain and makes the bonding come alive in a very powerful way. But I do remember Gregory Bates’s work, and I think in the highlands of New Guinea, I think that’s where he did it, where he realized that boys and girls only knew what they were in opposition to what they weren’t. And its humans are complicated critters. And so this is a really interesting sixth level saying that you are different. It’s okay. And you know, you’re different.
Andi Simon 00:44:06 Just watch how they do and what they’re learning, how to be more collaborative and communicative and caring. And if the boss isn’t, things don’t do so well. And when they are, they do much better for a guy and a gal. And the gals can show you how because they roll up the sleeves and get it done. and they don’t ask permission, and they don’t say I’m sorry, and they just make it happen. Let me wrap. This has been an absolutely scrumptious conversation with two beautiful women, Doctor Stacey Feiner and Rachel Wallace Andreasson. And they brought to us their new well, it’s their longstanding work that’s come together in a book, maybe, sort of a new book, but in fact, it’s a very important opportunity for us to think about how to lead, whether you’re a man or a woman, whether you’re young or old, because society and communities and businesses need leaders. Now, maybe we can have a cappella groups that can sing without a conductor, and sometimes that happens, and in the absence of a leader, people will figure out who to fill the vacuum with.
Andi Simon 00:45:12 Often not the best leader who’s ever the strong person who comes in. So if you don’t have a leader, you got to find one soon. And the women are doing things differently without having understood that that is not unique to them. It’s not idiosyncratic, but there’s a way that women do lead. It’s a sixth level, and it’s beyond self-actualization. It’s a way of really making communities and people come together. My remarks to finish this is a powerful, thought-provoking conversation today. I made some remarks up before we came together because I wanted to make sure, I highlighted a couple of things. You have invited us to reimagine leadership not as a position of power, but as a practice of purpose, connection, and deep relational intelligence. Is that what you were doing?
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:46:02 You nailed it. You nailed.
Multiple Speakers 00:46:03 It.
Stacey Feiner 00:46:03 Amen, sister.
Andi Simon 00:46:05 Well, I anticipated, but I also sometimes like to think ahead so that I don’t have to ad hoc it. It’s okay. But it’s also important that we make the point that this is a practice of purpose, connection, and deep relationship.
Andi Simon 00:46:18 Relax and say the word. It’s not relationships, but it’s very much relational intelligence. And this is really important for all of our listeners, men and women. This is not a leadership model. It’s a call to action. You know, this is a time for us to really challenge long held beliefs about how to lead. I’m thinking of my own leadership academies and how important it’s going to be for them to think about they do and watch them without having a word to address it. And the guys in the gals that collaborate on their biggest project in a way that’s hard to imagine from before, nobody takes charge, everyone gets together and they do really well. So this is women who are ready to lead on their own terms, to know that they’re not alone and they’re not really trying to figure it out. Just do it. You know how to do it, and you can run a team really well, and you can really build that kind of relationship that’s going to thrive regardless of what kind of business a health care business or manufacturing.
Andi Simon 00:47:20 I interviewed someone who is in the automobile industry. That’s tough, and I’ve written a bunch of articles on being a woman. And men dominated industries. Aren’t they all? But actually, I should just rewrite them and say, being a woman, it’s not about being in those industries. It’s how do you begin to navigate the complexity. So I want to thank you for your courage, for your clarity, and for lighting the way for so many others. And I speak from my heart to your hearts. This is really a special time for women in challenging time for women, and I think that we’re going to rise above the challenges and bring together a better society and culture for all of us men, women, young and old, because its times are ripe, ripe for all of us. I’m going to ask you for your last words, and then I’m going to wrap us up for the last time for my listeners. Stacy, I started off with you. You can rap. What do you want to end with?
Stacey Feiner 00:48:15 Well, both Rachel and I are mothers to daughters and sons.
Stacey Feiner 00:48:19 And I will say, I think I can speak for Rachel also, that we have raised six level sons, and they are they also benefit. Men also benefit when they are in environments that are six level. It’s challenging. The environment is the command-and-control environment is challenging for everyone. It hasn’t served any of us. Of course it wouldn’t. It’s only about half of us. So when we bring in the full picture, we all have the, the, the, the, the, the capability and the capacity to be full human beings for ourselves, for, for the people in our community and for the things that are most important for the sustainability of the planet.
Andi Simon 00:49:04 Yes, it is. It’s a time. Rachel, a last thought.
Multiple Speakers 00:49:08 Yeah.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:49:08 I guess I have always believed that the right people come into your life at the right time for a specific purpose. And, Andi, I am just honored to have met you. I have enjoyed finding you, reading your books. Rethink.
Rachel Walllis Andreasson 00:49:22 I mean, the myths of women leadership and your podcast, where you have so many intellectual people coming on challenging the status quo. And I hope that we have fulfilled that mission for you today as well, because this conversation has been so interesting, and I know we could have gone through a lot of rabbit holes if we only had, you know, ten more hours to spend talking to you. But it’s exactly, you know what my attraction to Stacey was when I interviewed, you know, multiple executive coaches because Stacey had the business experience and the psychology experience and those things matter because this is more than, you know, behaviors. It’s how we think, it’s how we’ve been socialized. And so I hope that everybody feels empowered by the sixth level. And my, you know, my wish for everyone is to be able to operate at the sixth level.
Andi Simon 00:50:19 Thank you. Thank you for your kindness. It is interesting, when I wrote my first book, On the Brink, my PR person said, you have to do a podcast and she put me on a couple and I went, oh, those aren’t very good at all.
Multiple Speakers 00:50:30 And I said.
Andi Simon 00:50:32 If I’m going to do a podcast, I’m going to have fun. I’m not going to monetize it. But I am going to share smart people who can help others. Mama share. And so you guys have been absolutely fabulous sharing your wisdom today. And I love the way you came upon it, because it’s grounded in the sciences, the social sciences and the psychology and the life experiences. And so for all of you who are watching, remember you too can smash the myths that are holding you back. Don’t let them stifle what you can do. It’s a mythology. And remember, we live the story in our mind. And if you want to change, just change the story. It’s not that hard. You control your story. Nobody else is controlling it. So it’s time for you to rise above what everyone said and lead with heart, purpose, and the kind of charity that can make others want to follow you. Because a leader without followers isn’t much good at all. And so today I’m going to say goodbye.
Andi Simon 00:51:25 My books are all on Amazon. Just look up Andy Simon on Amazon. It’s Andy, my husband is Andy, and he would love you to find his books, but they’re not there. And I think this is more fun than fun. Thank you, ladies, all of you.
Multiple Speakers 00:51:37 Who are awesome.
Andi Simon 00:51:38 Awesome. Send us lots of good stuff. We always love to hear from you about what you’d like to hear more about, and I’m just happy to bring great guests here. So on that note, I’m going to remind you to take your observations, turn them into innovations, and get off the break. It’s time. Go change and soar again. Bye everybody. Bye now.
