Imagine a ten-year-old girl in New Zealand watching an army commercial and declaring, “That’s what I want to be”. This simple declaration set Dr. Ellen Joan Ford on a transformative journey, a journey of leadership, service, and a new way of thinking about work. Her story is not just inspiring, it’s a call to action for all of us. Women are asking for flexible work for working parents. Our businesses want the talented women to be able to focus on both their families and their workday. It is a time for changing how businesses treat women.
In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Ellen Joan Ford—a leadership expert, military veteran, and the creator of the global #WorkSchoolHours movement. Ellen joins us from New Zealand with a deeply timely and universally relevant message: the structure of work must evolve to meet the real needs of modern families.
From the New Zealand Army to Leadership Thought Leader
Ellen’s story begins with a decade of service in the New Zealand Army, where she worked as an engineer officer and led soldiers at home and abroad. Her military career taught her discipline, courage, and—most importantly—how to lead. As she transitioned out of the military, she pursued an MBA and later a PhD in leadership, driven not by ambition but by a personal challenge.
Her doctoral research focused on the leadership experiences of women in the military, surfacing both empowering stories and persistent gender-based inequities. Rather than stop with research, Ellen took action, advising the Chief of the New Zealand Army and presenting her findings to senior leadership. Her goal? To make the Army more inclusive—not just for women, but for everyone.
The Birth of #WorkSchoolHours
You will enjoy watching Ellen’s podcast on YouTube here:
What began as academic research soon became a mission when Ellen was bombarded with personal stories from working parents. Over 500 parents shared their frustrations: being forced out of the workforce due to caregiving, missing irreplaceable moments in their children’s lives, or being underpaid for the same responsibilities simply because they worked “part-time.”
One night, while breastfeeding her youngest son, Ellen had a powerful realization: “I don’t want this for me or anyone else.” This was the birth of the #WorkSchoolHours movement, a movement that is not just a response to a problem, but a call to action for immediate change.
What Is the #WorkSchoolHours Movement?
#WorkSchoolHours is not about working less—it’s about working smarter. It’s a flexible work philosophy that allows employees, especially parents, to align their work schedules with family commitments without compromising performance or pay.
Ellen explains, “We live in a world where we’re expected to parent like we don’t have a job and work like we don’t have children. That’s not sustainable.”
Through her model of Belonging, Autonomy, and Purpose (BAP), Ellen offers a new way to lead and manage teams. Inspired by both anthropology and leadership science, BAP emphasizes:
- Belonging: Creating a work culture that acknowledges employees as whole people.
- Autonomy: Giving individuals the flexibility to manage their time and deliver results.
- Purpose: Helping people connect their work to something meaningful.
Ellen argues that when leaders focus on these elements, they can reduce burnout, increase productivity, and retain top talent—especially working mothers and caregivers. This not only benefits the employees but also the businesses, as it leads to a more engaged workforce and better business outcomes.
Her Book: A Practical Guide to Revolutionizing Work
In her new book, #WorkSchoolHours: A Revolution for Parents, Workplaces, and the World, Ellen doesn’t just talk about change, she provides a practical roadmap for it. With three powerful sections—what’s Wrong, what’s Possible, and How to Fix It—this book is more than a manifesto. It’s a toolkit for those ready to revolutionize their workplaces.
The book includes real-world examples from industries ranging from logistics to healthcare to manufacturing and provides actionable strategies for leaders who want to focus on outcomes rather than hours.
Even more exciting? Ellen is giving away her e-book for free on her website, ellenjoanford.com, using the code today. This is just one small way she’s walking the talk about accessible change.
Why This Matters Now
In the U.S., over 50% of the workforce is women, and over 40% of children are born to single mothers. Yet, most workplaces still operate on models developed over a century ago. As artificial intelligence and other technologies transform our professional landscape, isn’t it time to rethink the outdated 9-to-5?
Dr. Ford’s call to action is both compassionate and commercially wise. As she says, “Happy people deliver better results.” Her message is clear: when we redesign work around the realities of human life, everyone wins—parents, companies, and communities.
Listen, Learn, and Lead Differently
If you’re a business leader, HR professional, or just someone juggling the demands of work and home, this episode will leave you inspired—and equipped—to take action. As a corporate anthropologist, I believe change happens through small wins. Ellen Ford shows us how powerful those wins can be when rooted in purpose.
More to Enjoy
433: Organizations Must Embrace Human-Centric Design
430: How Does Dr. Chris Fuzie Create Great Leaders?
What Are You Doing to Adapt in Times of Uncomfortable Change
Additional resources for you:
- My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
- Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman
- All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy and Culture Change
- Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants
Connect with me:
- Website: www.simonassociates.net
- Email: info@simonassociates.net
- Books: Learn more about these books here:
- Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business
- Women Mean Business
- On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights
Listen + Subscribe:
Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey.
Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow. Let’s Talk!
From Observation to Innovation,
CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author
Simonassociates.net
Info@simonassociates.net
@simonandi
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Read the text for our podcast here:
Andi Simon
00:00:02
Hi, I’m Andy Simon, and welcome to. On the brink with Andy Simon. As you know, my wonderful listeners and viewers. I’m a corporate anthropologist, and my job is to help you change. I want you to see, feel and think in new ways so you can get off the brink. And the idea of bringing on good people with great ideas is that their stories become very influential in how you change your story, and your life is lived in that story. And so I want you to get some new stories so that you can begin to see what other people have done, and you can as well. Today I have with me Ellen Joan Ford from New Zealand, and we are a global podcast. I’ve had people from South Africa and Guyana and all kinds of places. It’s so much fun to share. But let me tell you a little bit about her and she’s smiling at you. If you’re watching the video, I promise you’re going to hear all about her story because it’s a big one.
Andi Simon
00:00:58
You’re going to hear her from Doctor Ellen, Joan Ford, and she’ll tell you about that doctor part two. She has served in the New Zealand Army, completed an MBA and a PhD in leadership. She started her own business and is raising two little boys who are growing up fast. She has advised corporate and government organizations, including the New Zealand Army, and her research and ideas are all about improving the working world, which have been wonderful, transformational. It’s like a series of these podcasts now are all about the future of work, changing work, building better managements for the future of work. We are going through something that is transformational. And it’s not just the fourth Industrial revolution. It’s how humans adapt to change, and they hate it. So she’s going to help you love it. So she is deeply passionate about all people having their best work and used her research and leadership to start the hashtag work school hours, and we’ll talk about her book as well. this is a movement that is very important to help people understand the impact of what they do on others.
Andi Simon
00:02:04
And she developed her belonging, autonomy and purpose leadership model, which is a very important one for you to listen, to understand. Part of it is very anthropological. It’s about belonging, autonomy and purpose. And if you know much about that now, Daniel Pink’s work, that’s what people want. They want mastery, autonomy and purpose. So we’re getting lots of good research about how to do this. She’s a Kiwibank New Zealander of the year. She’s a local hero person of the year, and she’s a recipient of the prestigious Sir Peter Blake Leadership Award. I think you’re really going to enjoy today like I enjoy all my podcasts. But Ellen, it brings a fresh perspective all the way from New Zealand. I must tell you; it’s the afternoon here and it’s the morning there and so bright and shiny. Ellen, thank you for joining me today. I’m so happy to have you here.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:02:53
Oh, thank you so much. Adrian, it’s lovely to be here.
Andi Simon
00:02:56
Tell us and our listeners are waiting to hear.
Andi Simon
00:02:59
Who is Ellen Joan Ford? What are you all about? What’s your story? Please give us a little bit about your career and your history here.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:03:07
Yeah, sure. So I, I started my career in the New Zealand Army, so I was super lucky. I spent ten years serving as an engineer officer, so it was amazing. I got to lead our soldiers in New Zealand and around the world doing, doing really meaningful stuff. I loved my time in the Army was,
Andi Simon
00:03:28
How did you get into the military? What drew you in?
Ellen Joan Ford
00:03:31
Oh, there was this really clever ad on TV when I was.
Andi Simon
00:03:36
Go ahead please.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:03:38
It really was. So I was only. I was ten years old, Andrea. And there was this ad, and it was a play on the words Army and, me and it said things like army with experience, me with education, army with, pride. And it had all these things, and it finished in this really catchy tune that said Army with the Future.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:04:02
And I remember at ten years old, I was like, that’s it, I’m joining the Army. It’s everything I possibly want.
Andi Simon
00:04:08
I’m glad you’re sharing that, because it was a significant event for a ten-year-old to have an inspiration, and your brain went. That’s what I want to be. Now please continue. So you went into the military and particular branch and how did you figure your way through that? This is really cool.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:04:26
Oh. So, yeah. So I joined up as an as an officer cadet. So did, did my sort of officer training, which is a lot of physical training, as you can imagine. a lot of fitness, living in the field, learning military tactics. And I also did my undergraduate degree in business during that period. And towards the end, before you graduate, you get to put in your preference for what corps or what kind of unit you’d like to go to. and I selected engineers because I thought there was quite a good balance between you still kind of at the front and you get to see some of the action, but there’s a lot of variety.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:05:05
And so I got lucky, and I got the call that I wanted and loved it. And I’m not saying everything was sunshine and rainbows, but what I can genuinely say is everything I saw on that ad as a ten-year-old girl, I got to do.
Andi Simon
00:05:21
So the Army armed you with education, leadership training and life experiences. Wow.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:05:28
Yeah, it was incredible. And I think the highlight for me was leading soldiers and feeling like I was having a positive impact on them. And also overseas deployments where we’d go over. You know, I got to serve in Afghanistan, did a lot of work in the Pacific. Often there’d be a natural disaster there, and we’d go in and help rebuild. And it was just awesome. It felt like really meaningful work we were doing. I yeah, I loved my time in the Army.
Andi Simon
00:05:56
It sounds like that was the purpose part. The belonging and autonomy tied into it as well. Didn’t it?
Ellen Joan Ford
00:06:02
Oh, yes. Actually. Yeah. I mean, it was.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:06:05
I mean, the work in the Army was very full purpose. And that. Really? Yeah, I love that. Like, of course I did it because I had my own enjoyment out of it as well. So, you know, it wasn’t completely selfless. I got to experience and learn things, and that was good for me. But I liked that the work that we were doing was to help other people. And that was, yeah, that was really joyful.
Andi Simon
00:06:28
So, as you know. How long did you stay there? Ten years.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:06:32
Yes. So from a to age, 18 to 28.
Andi Simon
00:06:35
And then what happened next?
Ellen Joan Ford
00:06:38
And then, so as I was coming out of the Army, I did my MBA. and then I moved into the corporate sector. So I worked at a logistics company, leading, a team there for a period of time. And then I went into another organization doing business consulting for exporters. And while I was doing that, I did my PhD, basically in the middle of the night.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:07:04
And I did it on leadership because, you know, I had been a leader in the Army. I’m really passionate about leadership and really about the people side of it. you know, you need to know lots of things as a leader. You need to know how to be strategic. You need to know a whole lot of technical skills. But I was really excited. And the human part of leadership. And so I did that. And actually, Andrea, I shared with you beforehand. I did my PhD. Honestly, it was just for a personal challenge. I thought, well, I’ve got my master’s. I want to go and do the next one up. And I had no intention of becoming an academic. I didn’t even think I was going to use it. It was just this personal, challenge, which, by the way, is not a good reason to do a PhD because it’s actually quite hard work.
Andi Simon
00:07:51
And having completed mine, it is, it is. It is very hard work.
Andi Simon
00:07:56
You’re supposed to work hard. It’s a rite of passage, right? That was. Yes. Right. So. And then so. So. And that’s so interesting. And then. So you got it. What did you discover during the research. Doing it. Because that I thought was well worth sharing.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:08:12
Yes. So I did. So the, the, the, the research was on leadership. And as you know, you’ve got to kind of narrow your topic. So I looked at leadership, of women. And that was just purely because that, you know, narrows down the population. And I am one. And then I looked at leadership experiences of women across a whole lot of different sectors. But my case study I did on the Army, and again, that was just really pragmatic. Andrea, I had people that I could interview. I knew something about the topic, and it was at the end of that I realized that while all these women had amazing experiences in the Army, as did I.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:08:51
So that’s really important to me to say there was lots of positive things shared. There was also. There were also some recurring themes of negative experiences that were gender, gender based. And so I thought I actually, Andrew, this became a little bit of a theme in my life. I got I don’t know if I’m allowed to say crass words, but I got irritated. I thought, I’m annoyed that the Army is not treating everyone as well as they should, and so I want to do something about it. And so I ended up basically moonlighting. So I was still working as a business consultant by day. I had my first baby at that point, and I advised to the chief of the New Zealand Army for about 18 months, sharing the findings from my research, but more importantly, giving recommendations for change, because I thought, I think, you know, we can do it better. The Army can be more inclusive for women. And oh, by the way, that’ll be good for men and the mission as well.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:09:48
So that was kind of my first foray into, having some ideas and being passionate and wanting to change things. And so that was kind of my first go at doing that, I guess.
Andi Simon
00:09:59
Well, I don’t think that should be underestimated, because if you listen to your foundation, you are a doer and learning on the job experientially. And then you become an intellectual academic, studying it and pulling together the insights of other women. I’m curious, being a woman who’s been an EVP of a bank and other things, do women lead differently than men?
Ellen Joan Ford
00:10:21
Oh, that’s a good question. So I like to think of it as that. We all lead in a unique way. And so we can say there are feminine approaches to leadership and masculine approaches to leadership, and they get those, titles because of stereotypes. So typically women lead in a feminine manner and men lead in a masculine manner. But I’m very careful to point out that that’s not always the case. So, I don’t want to say all women lead like this because actually some don’t.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:10:53
But what I did find in my research is the majority of the women did lead, and what I would describe a more feminine way, really relationship focused, really collaborative and inclusive. That was absolutely. That’s my style of leadership as well. And that was that was different to what the Army would often teach us as leaders. We were taught to be very directive, very sort of, measured, firm kind of command and control, which didn’t always feel authentic or natural to the woman that I was interviewing. and I’m sure there’ll be men who feel that way, too. I just didn’t interview them.
Andi Simon
00:11:33
Yes, I know, but this is really important as we move along on your own personal journey because, I do think that women are different than men, you know, and therefore their relationships with others and how to mobilize them, provide them with direction, enable and facilitate. I often thought of myself as, you know, I was EVP, but I was an enabler and I was a facilitator, a collaborator.
Andi Simon
00:11:58
My job was to get it done through others, and I was hardly ever a command and controller, because it just felt so silly. You know, these folks knew what they were doing. They just needed to know where we were going. and so it’s a very interesting observation. was the military interested in what you were doing? And then we’ll come back to you, your, your new book and your program and so forth. But I’m curious about was anybody interested?
Ellen Joan Ford
00:12:24
Yeah. So that was actually the really heartening bit. Yes. So the chief of Army, he’s just finished, actually. So there’s a new chief of Army now, but, General Boswell, John Boswell was, in the at the top seat at that point. And. Yeah, he really did. He wanted to know the findings. He, he and, you know, and his senior leadership team wanted to increase the representation of women in the Army. And I said, well, have you understood the experiences that we’re having through my research? I think that would be useful.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:12:57
And yeah, I briefed the senior leadership team on several occasions during that 18 month. the chief of Army had his, big conference, which, you know, all the leaders across the organization came to. And I was the keynote speaker sharing, this research, and I can’t I’m certainly not sitting here and saying, yes, you know, I’ve solved the Army. That would be that would be a gross exaggeration. But I’m genuinely angry. I’m really heartened and actually really proud that they did take on a lot of the recommendations that I made. And so there have been some really tangible changes, which I think is great.
Andi Simon
00:13:35
I think that’s really remarkable. Are they listened, they heard, and they did. How exciting. And so you moved from being in the military to now being an authentic authority on a topic of importance to them. And where did that take you next?
Ellen Joan Ford
00:13:52
So after that, and this is I’m talking, oh, four ish years ago, I got asked to speak at a few different events.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:14:03
and this was back when I was, you know, not a professional speaker. This was just, you know, for free. And they would ask me to talk about my experiences of serving in the military, doing my research, and then advising to the military. And so I did. I shared lots of different stories and exciting things about being in the Army and working as an advisor to the Army. And one of the things I talked about, which was actually, to be fair, quite a minor point in the overall talk, was around the challenges of being a working parent. and it was. Yeah, it was after that. Andrea. Totally not intentionally. All these parents just started reaching out to me. I got I kind of got bombarded with stories because people thought, oh, well, Ellen’s interested in this and I and I am and it was in a space of about six months, I had more than 500 sort of stories. And they were, you know, they were not as academically rigorous as a PhD set of data.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:15:04
But the stories, you know, they were I kept hearing the same one over and over. And I had this other moment of thinking, I’m annoyed. I don’t like these outcomes that they’re sharing with me, and I don’t I don’t want that for me or for them. And so I’m going to have to change the world.
Andi Simon
00:15:20
Oh gosh, what a great, you know, transition from an area of interest to oh my gosh, your market is coming to you saying help.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:15:31
Yes. And I had no idea that it was my market at that point. I was you know, I.
Andi Simon
00:15:36
And they didn’t know they had a hero.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:15:39
Oh well no I just so actually if I share really quickly Andrew, the three basically categories. So and it was mind blowing to me how many occasions people literally fit it into one of these three groups. And it was either parents would tell me that they just couldn’t make the juggle of working in the paid work force and being with children. The juggle was too much, and so they were forced out of the workforce.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:16:07
And I mean paid workforce there. And this is not people that made it made a conscious decision that I would like to be exclusively with my children. These are people that they just they were forced out of paid work. And often, you know, the cost of childcare didn’t add up to what they could earn. So that was sort of category number one, not a great outcome. The second one were parents that were working full time, but then they talked about the sadness of missing so many important moments with their children. So they missed being there for school pick-ups. They missed the swimming sports, the athletics carnivals, they missed the school holiday periods. And they just constantly felt bad that they missed so much. And then the third category were parents that worked part time. So you think, oh, okay, this could be a this could be a good balance of the two. But what always happened in this scenario is that the parent would work less, hours, get paid less, but then there’d be no reduction in what was required of them.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:17:13
So, you know, their KPIs, their responsibilities stayed exactly the same. And so they just became really efficient. They would get their job done in less hours. And Andrea, these people, they didn’t come to me to share their hard story. They said, oh, Ellen, look, I’m the exception. Look, I’m so lucky. I’m so fortunate to be in this position. And I thought, there’s nothing lucky about getting a pay cut to do the same job.
Speaker 3
00:17:40
This is this is gaslighting.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:17:43
At a societal level. now, this isn’t okay.
Andi Simon
00:17:48
So now you had that epiphany happen. I think this is fascinating. Where’d you take it?
Ellen Joan Ford
00:17:58
So, yes, it was actually so really specifically, it was about 2:00 in the morning. Andrea. So I remember this. I was up breastfeeding my baby. So Monty was, I don’t know, maybe ten months at the time. And Toby was three. And I remember just sitting there down the lounge, you know, dark Monty’s breastfeeding and I was just marinating on all these stories.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:18:22
I thought, I don’t I don’t like any of these outcomes either. Being forced out of work, working all the hours and missing your kids or getting paid less to do the same amount of work. I thought, none of these. I don’t want this for my future. I don’t want this for me, and I don’t want it for other people. And so I’m going to have to do something about it. And I didn’t have it all clear in my head at that very moment. But I was like, I’m, I’m going to make this my business. I want to change the working world. I want to make it better. I know that it’s got something to do with leadership, and that’s been my background leading in the Army corporate sector research on leadership. So I knew it had something to do with that. And it was about the construct of work, how we, you know, the way that we do this, 9 to 5 is not feasible for a modern workforce. And so, yeah, it was 10:00 in the morning.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:19:13
I was like, I’m going to I’m going to do something about this. I’m going to call it hashtag work school hours. And then the rest unfolded from there.
Andi Simon
00:19:24
I, I love epiphanies because your mind is working through a problem. And then all of a sudden it says, I got the answer, I got the answer, I got the answer, and now do it. So hashtag will work. School hours turned into business speaking a book. Tell us about it. Because it’s beautiful.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:19:45
Oh. Thank you. So I my leadership model is belonging autonomy and purpose. And so I believe that for people to thrive. Actually Andrea to talk about what you said when you were leading as an EVP. So I, I say on stage, you know, I believe that a leader’s job is to create an environment where their people can thrive and then direct that thriving energy at the task that needs to be achieved. So I don’t, you know, I don’t think leadership is about command and controlling.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:20:14
I think leadership is about getting your people to be able to thrive and then direct that. Oh, okay. This is very this is my little boy. Monty’s just come into the room who’s homesick from day to day.
Speaker 3
00:20:26
And that’s why him and Casey want to put him on. Thank you.
Andi Simon
00:20:33
For those of you listening and watching. Ellen’s little boy came in at a perfect time. Because this is about the balance between work and being a mom. And her little boy is sick. And what a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate. Of course you can do both. So I’m going to turn it back over to Ellen to tell us some more about how she’s building a business around her leadership with hashtag work school hours. Ellen. Help us.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:20:59
Yeah. Thanks, Andrea.
Speaker 3
00:21:00
I got it.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:21:01
It wasn’t on cue, but.
Speaker 3
00:21:03
It.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:21:04
Kind of demonstrates the point, right? He’s, He’s in daycare three days. He’s a bit sick today, so he’s home. And I, I like to think that just because I have a child who has needs doesn’t mean that I’m not effective in the workforce.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:21:19
And this is what so many parents and I’ll say it was, especially moms. The majority of my research was on mothers. They were constantly made to feel that they weren’t a good worker, unless they could sort of almost pretend that their kids didn’t exist. And I yeah, I don’t I don’t like that. So into the, into the leadership stuff. So I was saying, I think that leaders create environments where their people can thrive and what they need to thrive is a sense of belonging. They need some autonomy, and they need purpose. And what I realized is that parents were not experiencing belonging, autonomy and purpose because it was almost like you would belong at work, provided you sort of ignore the fact that you had children. So that’s not actually belonging. We lack autonomy because we’re trying to pick up our kids from school at 3:00, but work finishes at 5:00. You know, it’s just this horrendous mismatch and purpose. We’ve got these competing purposes. I have a purpose to be a really effective worker, and I have a purpose to be a really good mother or parent.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:22:22
And these things are in conflict. And so it was from that I started looking back at, well, why do we do work the way we do it and the 9 to 5 or the 40-hour week? That literally came about more than a hundred years ago, and it was in line with Henry Ford’s car manufacturing era. Incredible social progress at that time, but it was built on the assumption that every household has a dedicated worker and a dedicated caregiver. They were two different people. Yep. But that’s just not society today. And it hasn’t been for decades, but literally decades. Women have been in the workforce. The person who’s the caregiver is also the person who’s in the workforce. But we haven’t changed. And so that’s where hashtag work school hours was born. And just and I’ll pause for a minute because Andrew I go on, I get too excited. But what I will say is, is not as dogmatic as the title sounds. It’s a principles-based approach where we focus more on outputs as opposed to ours, and we give people more flexibility.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:23:23
And I, I believe in it so wholeheartedly, Andrea, that belonging, autonomy, purpose, leadership and hashtag work school hours principles can fundamentally make work better for so many more people.
Andi Simon
00:23:37
Well, you’re getting to the crux of the problem. today, we’re not an agricultural society and we’re not a manufacturing society. And all of the things that led to being off in the summertime for the farmer or working in a factory, as people did with a man who worked and a woman who stayed home. 40% of the children in the United States were born to single moms. That’s a lot of kids being born to a single parent who is the breadwinner and the mom.
Speaker 3
00:24:10
Yeah.
Andi Simon
00:24:11
But we don’t think of them as anything other than an employee. Men and women are the same, but I don’t quite understand. It’s why it’s so difficult for people to understand things have changed and to change them and to think of it with humility and with kindness and with understanding. Because I do think everyone would rise if only, we thought of this as an opportunity to improve the lives of both our families.
Andi Simon
00:24:43
Why? Why are kids not a central part of our society? You want kids? Then let’s help them. Raise them. But why does it have to be just the mom at home? Now I will tell you. I raised two wonderful daughters. They were born while I was doing my PhD. You can appreciate that. And I was a full-time professor, and my husband and I would split the days that I was working and when he could help. And he was a professional. And somehow, they are professionals, and their kids are pretty happy too. So you can do it, but you need to have a mindset that said, you know that that the place you’re working cares about you as a whole person. And this balance between work and life. Well. But isn’t work life and life work? I mean, the whole thing is a time for a new story. I want to hear what you’re proposing because I have a hunch there’s a big story here.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:25:37
Oh, I mean, everything you just said really resonated then, Andrea and I’m a single mum.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:25:43
So you know, in the last few years I didn’t start that way. But it’s hard. I’m my household depends on me earning an income. And also, I’m the primary caregiver of my children. And so I, I kind of use this phrase sometimes where we live in a society where we are expected to work as if we don’t have children, and we’re expected to parent as if we don’t have a job. And this to me, just seems it seems bonkers. You know, I think if we had a clean slate today and thought, how should we structure work? I don’t think any sane person would say, yeah, let’s put all the adults on this schedule and we’ll put all the children on a different schedule. That doesn’t match. I mean, that’s just that. That to me is yeah, it’s bonkers. It’s insane. And what you said then about work life, I think, well, we have life. And inside our life we have different commitments. Work is one of those commitments Looking after our children is another commitment and also people who don’t have children.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:26:45
They also have commitments outside of work. So it’s all about how do we look more holistically at life and figure out how do we do the work bits and the other bits we need to do? And I, I really talk about this as a leadership challenge. So in my in my book, I’ve got sort of recommendations and advice for parents to be able to make some change in their organization. But I’m really upfront about saying this is not a self-help book to help parents with more time saving tips. This is actually how do we systemically change how we do work. And so I talk to leaders and help them understand have you lead with creating belonging, autonomy and purpose for your people? The hours that they do actually become so much less relevant. If we get really clear on, what do we want our people to achieve? What’s the outputs? What’s the deliverables? What’s the purpose for that? How do we give people some autonomy and flexibility to do that, and make them feel they belong as whole humans? The sort of question of where did they do their work? What hours did they do? Their work becomes really so much less relevant if we just focus on the tasks that need to be achieved.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:27:57
And I also think that when we have the autonomy to kind of manage our own schedule, where we are all as individuals, the most effective people at determine our own schedule.
Speaker 3
00:28:09
Yes, we.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:28:10
Are. And so, yeah, if you give people that autonomy to be like, hey, I don’t really care when you get your work done, just do it. Yeah, they’ll get it done. It just might not be in a 9 to 5 window.
Andi Simon
00:28:21
Now, this is so interesting because, one would think this is simple and easy. Logical makes a lot of sense. You have half the workforce. I don’t know what New Zealand is, but in the US, 51% of the workforce are women, 65% of the college graduates are women. Over half the doctors are women, half the dentists or women. 65% of the accountants are women. You get my drift? There are a whole lot of very smart women and. And for those who do not have children, they do have a life after work.
Andi Simon
00:28:52
and those who do have children, they often have parents as well. I mean, there are complexities in life. It isn’t a simple box. And now it’s a time for us to rethink because there’s so much talent. How do we leverage the talent with innovative thinking at a time when we have AI and other kinds of systems? How are we going to transform society in a very healthy way so that people can be happier? And I think happiness could be a really cool benefit of all of this. Don’t you think? I mean, isn’t it time that women and men are happier in what they’re doing and how they’re doing it?
Speaker 3
00:29:27
Oh my God, yes.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:29:29
And that’s I mean, kind of my genesis for this was that I was I was sad and hurting that so many parents were sharing these stories, and they weren’t happy. And it was they were just kind of barely surviving, not thriving. And so I, I want all of us and myself to have really joyful, thriving experiences. But the thing that gets me so excited is that it’s commercially smart.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:29:55
So I’m not sort of saying, hey, businesses be nicer to your people. And that’s going to be sort of a burden for you. I’m saying no. Treat your people better and they’ll make you more money. You know, happy people genuinely deliver bigger profits for the organizations they work for.
Speaker 3
00:30:11
Well, so that’s exciting.
Andi Simon
00:30:13
They want to help. They’re mobilized and motivated with a common goal of making everybody better together. This is so.
Speaker 3
00:30:20
Cool.
Andi Simon
00:30:21
Cool, cool. I do want to talk about your book for a moment, and I am watching our time, and I can talk to you a lot about what you’re talking about, because I love the conversation. But I do think it would be fun for you to show the book and talk about what’s in there for parents and for companies.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:30:37
Yeah, sure. So this is, this is my book. I’m very excited. The cover is beautiful and colorful, which I love. So it’s called hashtag work. School hours. a revolution for parents, workplaces in the world.
Speaker 3
00:30:49
Wonderful.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:30:51
and it’s there’s three parts of the book. So the first part is sort of what’s the problem and how do we get here? So it talks about how we, the historic nature of work and how we got to this position where we’re in this sort of mismatch. Yep. The middle section of the book is all around. What’s the solution? What is work school hours, what isn’t it and what it is, talking about the principles based and how it can benefit society, how it can benefit organizations. So it’s all about what it is. And then the third part of the book is all the practical bits of how to do it. And it is the third part of the book is, I’d say mostly most of that third part is geared towards leaders. So it’s how we implement this. And I’ve got tons of examples from lots of different sectors. So what I like is knowledge workers. It’s probably kind of easy to think how you’d apply this, but I’ve got examples in here about how to apply these principles to shift workers, to manufacturing companies, to construction, to farming.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:31:52
And so I think that’s really cool that it’s how do we apply this everywhere. And the other bit in that third part is geared specifically at individuals. And that’s all about giving individuals advice on how they can approach their managers and say, hey, I want to deliver these great outputs for you. I want to do it a little bit differently. and so I think there’s yeah, there’s good stuff in there for leaders and there’s good stuff in there for individuals.
Andi Simon
00:32:17
Are you seeing momentum build on the transformation? You’re talking about a great transformation. And are you seeing those wonderful little tips of the iceberg in New Zealand, or is it really percolating all the way through? What do you see happening?
Ellen Joan Ford
00:32:33
So the progress is not as great as I’d love it to be yet.
Speaker 3
00:32:36
But.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:32:37
That’s because I want everything to be fixed yesterday.
Andi Simon
00:32:39
So I’m fixing it tomorrow. It’s easy. Just change the hours, right?
Speaker 3
00:32:44
Yeah.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:32:46
Actually. But what is neat, Andrea? The way that I know that this is getting some cut through is that there are more and more businesses booking me to come and speak.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:32:55
Now, I take that they know that I’m the hashtag work school hours woman. They know that I’m the belonging autonomy purpose woman and they are booking me to speak in their organizations. Now that in itself gives me hope that they are actually they wanting to do this. So, you know, you wouldn’t book me to come and talk if you weren’t open to doing work differently. and I get booked to do workshops to help companies with how they can specifically apply it in their place. And there’s traction in that. I’ve got actually what’s quite neat. I sort of this is how I can almost measure progress, which is quite tricky. You know, I want to change the world. It’s quite difficult to quantitatively measure KPIs for that. But I get feedback every now and again that I just came out of nowhere and someone will say, hey, I heard you speak, or I listened to you on a podcast, or I read your book. And we’ve now made some changes at our workplace.
Speaker 3
00:33:50
And I’m like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 3
00:33:53
Well, you.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:33:53
Know, I do.
Speaker 3
00:33:54
This.
Andi Simon
00:33:55
Change and changing the world. You need to do one small win at a time. And as we’re finishing up, I want you to tell folks how they can get your book and how they can reach you for some wisdom. But, you know, as the listeners or the viewers are thinking about this, I think you should send to me or to Ellen. You know, your small wins a little at a time will move the world. And don’t expect it to be you have a battleship, you have an oar. It’s hard to turn it with an oar, but one little bit at a time, as long as you know where you’re going, can get it in the right direction. And this would be so amazing. I love the fact that it isn’t an either or, because men and women will both benefit from this.
Speaker 3
00:34:39
Yes.
Andi Simon
00:34:39
Right. I mean, men have other interests also. And there’s no reason why they can’t earn a nice living and get good results and not have to punch in and punch out for eight hours, except in the US.
Andi Simon
00:34:49
There’s some laws about this as well, but we can work on all of this. This is really cool stuff. So. Let’s wrap up 1 or 2 things you want to tell the folks, so they don’t forget, and then how to get your book and how to get Ahold of you.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:35:03
Okay, so, kind of a takeaway if you’re in a leadership position. I’d really love you to think differently about. Instead of monitoring how many hours your people work. Get really clear on what are the outputs you want them to deliver. I think that’s the biggest takeaway. And the best sort of starting point for leaders is forget about counting hours. Think about what the outputs are you want. And also for the leaders is then get your team involved. Say hey team. These are the outputs that we have to deliver. This is our purpose. How might we do this a little bit differently? so that would be a, I think, a takeaway for leaders, for, individuals. And so it’s not just parents, it’s anyone who has something they care about outside of work.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:35:47
Know your worth. So if you are working less hours, if you are delivering the same outputs, there’s no reason for you getting less pay. And so I think it’s about knowing your worth. And if you are currently in a very rigid workplace, think about if you want to change that. Go to your boss with a win. Don’t go to them and say, hey, my life’s really tough and I would like more flexibility because my lives difficult. Go to them and say, hey, I want to do this great work for you. Can I do it differently? And can I maybe trial this? So that would kind of be my two takeaways for leaders and for individuals. in terms of accessing. Oh what’s that. Sorry.
Andi Simon
00:36:26
Okay. Please go ahead.
Speaker 3
00:36:28
Go ahead.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:36:29
In terms of accessing the book. So I, I mean, you can buy the book on my website, which is my name. Ellen. also work school hours will get you there as well. but I my goal isn’t to sell books.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:36:43
My goal is to change the world. So I’m genuinely anyone who hears this. If you get an e-book from my website. So go to the shop. You can either buy yourself a hard, you know, a paperback. But if you want the e-book, I’ll give it to you for free. Just use the code. It’s today. Zero. So those seven characters today zero. If you put that in, you can get my e-book for free. And all I’d ask is that you, if you learn something good, please tell people about it. I can’t change the world by myself, but we can all do it together.
Andi Simon
00:37:14
And step at a time. Now is today without capital. It’s just all lowercase.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:37:19
It doesn’t matter.
Andi Simon
00:37:20
Doesn’t matter.
Speaker 3
00:37:20
Perfect.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:37:21
By the way.
Speaker 3
00:37:21
I work.
Andi Simon
00:37:22
Good. And the name of the website is Ellen Joan ford.com or.org.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:37:26
He’s Ellen John Ford.
Speaker 3
00:37:27
Com.
Andi Simon
00:37:28
Good. Perfect. if they want to reach you, would it be best to get to you through your website or is there? Are you a LinkedIn person or how would they find you best?
Ellen Joan Ford
00:37:38
Oh yes.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:37:38
So yes, my website’s got all my contact details, but I am on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram and my, name for all of those is Doctor Ellen Joan Ford.
Speaker 3
00:37:48
Perfect.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:37:49
So, yeah, please, please reach out.
Andi Simon
00:37:52
Ellen loves to speak, and I don’t think it matters where you are in the world. She has a message and a story to tell you. I’m going to wrap us up. It’s been a pleasure. But I also know that it’s time for our listeners to think about how to apply this and act in a way that they can build a better world. And purpose is really important today. You know, what is your why? What is it you’re doing and why does it matter? And if you think about Ellen’s story and those of all the people who came to her saying, man, how do I fix this? People want to be good. They want to be happy. They want to have happy kids. They don’t want to sit at home and play video games, although some do.
Andi Simon
00:38:30
Most of them really do want to have a meaningful, purposeful job where they belong to something that matters. And it’s time for us to build a better world that does that. I will tell you, since I’m a corporate anthropologist that helps companies to change, and Simon Associates is, you know, we’ve been in business over 20 years helping companies change. Change. The brain hates to change. And so as you’re thinking about this, your brain is going to fear it, flee it, fight it. You need to or appease it, or you need to overcome that. It’s a very nice survival instinct, which is don’t change. Well, yes, we have to. And when you change, you’re going to say, now, how do I do this? I said, figure it out. You’ll make it up. You won’t be perfect. But nothing today is either. So working 9 to 5 is not perfect. But if you had the flexibility that you need, then you could begin to see what is more perfect for you and figure out ways of belonging with others who are trying to do the same.
Andi Simon
00:39:30
And at the end of the day, work will get done, quality work will get done, and who knows how many hours it should take. You probably don’t need that coffee break all the time with somebody sitting at the water cooler talking, although talking is really good. So it’s time to rethink work, I love it. Sounds like a new book we should write, Love the idea. so call us if you want to hand helping Ellen John Ford change, because we would love to help you visualize and deliver on a whole new way of work for men and women in the workplace and at home. you can find out more about us at Simon Associates Dot net. Our books are on Andy simon.com. Andy Simon. Com Amazon has all of our books and on the brink A fresh lens to take your business to new Heights was the catalyst for our podcast, and I’m so thrilled that you came today. Whether you’re listening or you’re watching, I love to share with your ideas that are helping you get off the break.
Andi Simon
00:40:28
That’s our job. So don’t sit around and think about it. Try and do something. Small wins win and it’s a step at a time. Going somewhere better. You can’t turn this battleship with an oar. But you can turn it, and you just need to start. So my note to you is take your observations, turn them into innovations. Ellen said something really important. She had an epiphany. You will too. Your brain is learning a whole lot, and it wants to go wish. Let’s do this. So I’ll say goodbye. Thank you. Ellen, thank you so much for coming. Today. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. I hope you had fun.
Speaker 3
00:41:02
Oh, yes.
Ellen Joan Ford
00:41:03
Thank you. Andrea, I really appreciate it.
Andi Simon
00:41:05
Wonderful. Any last thoughts, or shall I say goodbye for us?
Ellen Joan Ford
00:41:10
No. I think that’s what I’ve talked.
Andi Simon
00:41:12
And having your son come in was so timely and appropriate. And I think it was just plain old fun. So look up Ellen John ford.com, and let’s have some more fun making home and work and life all happy.
Andi Simon
00:41:26
And I like to be happy. Goodbye now. Take care.
Speaker 3
00:41:29
Bye.
