374: Kon Apostolopoulos—Time To Build Your Engagement Blueprint To Build A Better Team

Hear how to create a workplace where people love to work

I first had the pleasure of interviewing Konstantinos (Kon) Apostolopoulos for this podcast in July 2020 as the pandemic was raging around the world. He and Dr. Elia Gourgouris had just co-authored the book, 7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis: A Practical Guide to Emotionally Dealing with Pandemics & Other Disasters. Now Kon has written another book due out next year, called Engagement Blueprint: Building a Culture of Commitment and Performance. And what is so fascinating about his new book is that it focuses on business culture change and employee engagement as the keys to business success. Kon and I are both culture change experts and so as you can imagine, I’m excited to learn what he has to tell us today, as I think you will be too. 

Watch and listen to our conversation here

People seek out environments where they feel valued and their needs are being met.

Some keypoints from today’s discussion:

  • An engaged workforce looks for things that need to get done because they feel appreciated and value helping the company move forward. They’re connected and understand clearly what the goals are, and they’re looking for opportunities to support their teammates in meaningful ways and make contributions that will make a difference for the organization and for themselves.
  • They look at their daily activities as opportunities to learn, to grow, to capitalize on that, to invest in themselves.
  • When that happens, work becomes learning, work becomes play, work becomes exciting. That’s the kind of place where engagement really thrives.
  • People want something more than just financial success. They want, and need, to be valued and appreciated in what they do. We all do.

How to reach Kon

You can connect with Kon on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter and his website Fresh Biz Solutions, or email him at kon@freshbizsolutions.com. Also, take the online version of Kon’s self-assessment questionnaire to learn what your organization can do differently to really soar.

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Read the transcript of our podcast here

Andi Simon: Hi and welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi I’m Andi Simon. And as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. And I love to do it by bringing you interesting people who are going to help you do something important. You’re going to see things through a fresh lens. You’re going to feel things differently. And remember, we decide with how we feel and then you’re going to think about it. Because if you can see it and feel it, then your brain says, Oh, that’s what we’re talking about. And today, this is really a great opportunity, particularly coming out of the pandemic, still not being sure or certain about work and life and hybrid and all kinds of things. It’s time for us to think about that organization we want to build.

So today, somebody whom I interviewed earlier for this podcast, in July 2020, is coming back because he’s writing a new book, a solo book: Kon Apostolopoulos, who is a really wonderful gentleman who works with organizations to help them, like I do, change. Let me read you a little bit about his background. He’s founder and CEO of Fresh Biz Solutions, Fresh Like That, and Human Capital Management Consultancy, which provides performance improvement and training solutions to help organizations develop their people, improve business results, and reap the benefits of a comprehensive talent management strategy.

During the pandemic, he and Dr. Elia Gourgouris published a book called 7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis: A Practical Guide to Emotionally Dealing with Pandemics & Other Disasters. That was terrific and very timely. He’s a regular contributor to Thrive Global and Achievers Engagement. I think what you’re going to love today is that he has had time to develop a new book on employee engagement. He calls it Engagement Blueprint: Building a Culture of Contribution and Performance. Is that the title? Did I get it almost right?

Kon Apostolopoulos: Almost right. Almost right. Commitment and Performance. Both of those are things we’re going to talk about today. And hopefully I put down a half a word and then I had a figure. The other half was on. So good thing we can laugh together.

Andi Simon: What I think for our listeners and our viewers is so important is that Kon brings both research and experience and expertise to this engagement question. And I love when he talks about it because you’re going to begin to think about that blueprint that you need, which lays out a pathway to change what’s maybe a little chaotic today into something where employees believe in the place and really want to participate and belong. Kon, thank you so much for joining us.

Kon Apostolopoulos: It’s such a pleasure to be with you again, Andi. Thank you for having me.

Andi Simon: Our problem is going to be to only stay within a half hour or so because we love to talk. There’s nothing better than getting together with people who share your passion and your purpose. I want you to talk a little bit  about your background so they understand who’s Kon. And then we’ll talk about the origin myth of this new book, which is so important. Please share with them. Who is Kon?

Kon Apostolopoulos: Thank you. It’s a pleasure. Kon is right now a 30 year veteran of the Adult Learning Performance Improvement Change Leadership space. I essentially work with people. The company I founded about a dozen years ago, Fresh Biz Solutions, is focused on helping organizations, the kind of organizations that you and I know, Andi, that spend a lot of time and money building, developing very intricate business plans. Where I come in and help is that I ensure that they have the right people in the right place, ready and willing to execute those plans because without them, the organization really has a plan that’s not worth the paper it’s written on because it needs its people at their best to be able to execute those plans.

And a lot of times that comes through workshops and development. A lot of times that comes through one-on-one or group coaching efforts to enhance the commitment that people have as well as their competence. Sometimes it comes with tailored events that need to be facilitated to bring people together and aligned with the goals that we’re striving for, and ultimately working with my clients on their systems to make sure that every dollar that they invest in their people is a dollar well spent and it aligns to something that they target that is very purposeful rather than a “nice to have.”

So I’ve been doing that for a long time now and I’ve had the pleasure of working in a number of industries across the spectrum with a number of different types of organizations: public, private, smaller and now much more of that mid- to large-space organizations that have enough people where we can make a difference and truly create the kind of workplace that people can find themselves, they can really align themselves, see themselves achieving their goals, and, oh, by the way, helping the organization be successful as well, because we all deserve that kind of a workplace.

Andi Simon: Engagement, though, is always a strange word. People talk about it wishfully. I’m not quite sure they would know it if they saw it. And then I couldn’t be sure how they would feel it if it was there. So let’s start off with, you know, you’ve moved through the 30 years into working with organizations large and small, and now you’re beginning to really find ways to make a difference. Why? Why should we even think about this thing called employee engagement? Why does it matter?

Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, let’s approach that from a number of different angles. Let’s look at our protagonists in the story. Let’s talk about, first and foremost, the employees themselves. People seek out environments where they can feel like their needs are being met. And when we talk about engagement needs, we talk about the need all of us have, first and foremost, to be valued and appreciated in what we do.

Second of all, to feel like they belong in that environment, that they’re part of a team, part of a tribe. These are basic needs, fundamental needs that we all have. In addition to that, in our workplaces, in our careers, we all seek to feel like we are making a meaningful contribution, that we are able to be productive in what we’re doing. So at the end of the day, we feel like we’ve accomplished something.

And ultimately most of us want to know that we are operating in an environment that invests in us, supports us so we can continue to learn and grow so we’re not remaining stagnant. So from that perspective, from an employee standpoint, these are basic needs that employees are looking for in their organizations. Now, the book that I’m writing is actually written from the perspective of the employer, the leader, the leader in all of us that now has to try to win the hearts and minds of their people and try to address those needs that people have.

And from that perspective, employers are looking at it and saying, “You know what, I put out a lot of things. I spend a lot of my money, my resources, my capital towards my employees. I want to know that that investment is being reciprocated and that there is value for me investing in that.” Otherwise, most employers will just settle for what they can get. They’ll settle for a situation where they’ll think, okay, I’ll just pay the basic minimum because I’m not going to get much more than that.

Whereas the companies that are truly performing at the highest levels, the brands that we have come to know and appreciate, they do things a little bit differently. They truly capture that engaged spirit of their people. They capture that discretionary effort, that commitment that people can bring to their work that want to see the organization succeed. That’s the magic that we’re trying to capture and that’s the environment that we all deserve to operate in.

Andi Simon: Assuming that one who’s listening or viewing is beginning to visualize an engaged organization with high levels of employee engagement. And I do this with my own clients, visualize. You can see it. You can become it. So what will a highly engaged workforce feel like or look like? Because while we say the words that they want value and they really want to be connected and productive, how will I see that? Will I know it? What will it feel like? And, what are the actions of the behaviors, not just the spirit that’s going to be demonstrated here for an organization to know I’m moving them into an engagement. Tell me, how do I see it? What will it feel like?

Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, first and foremost, the feeling is a different level of energy. There’s a certain heightened level of energy. There is an excitement, an urgency about the place. There is an environment where you notice that there are leaders at all levels of the organization, people taking personal accountability and ownership of activities. They’re not sitting around waiting for people to tell them what to do or not. They aren’t just taking advantage of the fact that, Well, guess what, my boss hasn’t really contacted me, I’m just going to sit here and play solitaire.

Engaged workforce looks for things that need to get done. Why? Because they feel appreciated and value moving forward. They’re connected and understand clearly what the goals are, and they’re looking for opportunities to support their teammates in meaningful ways and make contributions that they understand and know will make a difference for the organization and for themselves. And ultimately, they look at each one of their daily activities as opportunities to learn to grow, to capitalize on that, to invest in themselves. Because truly, work becomes learning, work becomes play, work becomes exciting. That’s the kind of place where engagement really thrives.

So as I work with one of my clients and we talk about how to build engagement, I’d probably say something like, Today, people wait to be told what to do. And in an engaged organization, they individually take the autonomy and accountability to try and solve a problem before they have to be told what to do rather than wait to have an idea come from someplace else. They bring the ideas elsewhere so they can see it manifesting into new ways of doing things rather than coming in and punching a clock. They want to see what else. They wake up in the morning, put their feet on the ground and say, How can I do something better today? Is that the kind of thing you’re looking at?

Andi Simon: Yes, absolutely. Because what you’re describing manifests itself with a very different attitude towards work. People are excited to be there. People are looking forward to the opportunity to engage, to see their partners out there because they truly see them as partners. There is a level of ownership, again, that thrives in this environment where people will step forward and say, How can I support you? It’s very easy to put your ego aside because you don’t feel threatened when you feel like part of the team, like you belong, like you are allowed to be there when you are valued for what you bring, small or large to this to the table.

Kon Apostolopoulos: Different people will contribute in different ways. But if you can see that connection between your job, your work, your output and how this moves the organization forward, that’s an important part. I mean, we all want to know where we belong and how we fit into this. It’s no different than I explain it to a lot of the leaders that I work with. I say, If you have a group photo, Andi, what’s the first thing you’re going to do when you get it in your hands? You’re going to look for…where am I in this picture and how do I fit in. That’s right. That’s exactly the picture that we need to paint for every single one of our people. So they know clearly in no uncertain terms what they do, where they belong and how they contribute to this and that. That contribution is truly valued and appreciated.

Andi Simon: You said something very important because there are times when that picture is of a toxic team and the need to belong overwhelms the need to do well. And consequently, we’ve all had clients where every department is toxic to the others. You know, finance won’t talk to marketing and marketing can’t talk to sales. And they all are on a different agenda. And somehow the organization’s supposed to thrive. They’re all engaged, but not in what you should be.

So is there some wisdom you can bring to us today about how you take apart that kind of silos? I’m thinking of a client I had in Mexico where everything was so siloed that nobody wanted to work there.

Kon Apostolopoulos: Right. Well, think about what drives a lot of that when we have a scarcity mentality, when the people that are incentivizing the work, that are driving the work, that are directing the work, say, Okay, there’s only so much accolades, so much reward to go around for what I’m looking for. You guys fight amongst yourselves who’s going to get it. But if I come at it from the perspective of abundance and I say, There’s enough gratitude and appreciation, there’s enough acknowledgement for all of us to be successful, that takes away the need for us to fight over scraps. And that’s a big part. That’s a fundamental, visceral reaction we have when we are in an environment where our very safety is threatened because that’s what a toxic environment does. Different levels of our physical, mental, emotional well-being are threatened by that. There is a scarcity out there. There’s not enough of that.

That’s why we strive to kind of rise to the top. But it’s the collusion of mass mediocrity. It’s the crabs in the bucket. Every time you try to rise above the rest in an environment like that, the rest of them are going to pull you down because it’s not even about them getting out there desperate enough that they will pull you down to climb all over you to get away. And that’s not a healthy environment, that kind of workplaces are condemned. It’s just a matter of time. They’re dead and they don’t even know it.

Andi Simon: It was interesting in that particular client, they were struggling to expand and become more innovative with a workforce that believed that the old ways were the way we do things, we can’t change. And I’m listening to you. They were each engaged in a different story. And we’re storytellers. And I always tell my clients, you live the story that’s in your mind. So what’s your story? And as I’m listening to it, it’s that they see the world around them in this company for their benefit, not for them serving a larger purpose. And I think that higher level purpose is what will create engaged employees, or is that not what you see also.

Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, I totally agree with you, but in order to get to that higher purpose, those fundamental needs will need to be met. There needs to be a “we need to create the kind of environment where people don’t have to worry about those things, where if you’re talking about a company that’s trying to innovate, you know it better than I do.”

Innovation demands risk. We cannot hope to innovate, to change, without risk. Well, in an environment that you’re describing that’s that toxic, where people are holding on to the norms and to the old ways, the legacy ways of doing things. Why are they doing that? Because they know it’s safe, because stepping outside of those boundaries has always perhaps been chastised, perhaps has been penalized, perhaps it’s been seen as evil. So they want one thing, but they’re rewarding or creating consequences for that thing. They’re rewarding the opposite behavior and thus creating those consequences for that. You can’t ask me to take risks if you’re not allowing me to make mistakes.

Andi Simon: Well, and it is particularly difficult. I sometimes have been working with companies, going through transitions with new leadership, and while they can say the words, I want you to be a more self-empowered entrepreneur, and the old person was directing and controlling the people who are there who don’t know what the words mean and they don’t know how to be self empowered. It’s so interesting. Let’s go back to your book, though. You’ve structured this book in a way to create a blueprint, and that becomes an interesting metaphor for what you’re trying to set up. I want to give you enough time to talk about the blueprint and how somebody might enable it or execute on it, because you clearly have a methodology here you want to share.

Kon Apostolopoulos: Thank you. And yes, indeed, what I found is that I started this project about 18 months ago. It was, as you mentioned, Dr. Elia and I had the opportunity to write a book together right at the dawn of the pandemic. And we got it out early on because we knew that people needed help. And that book was the 7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis. And it was a roadmap on how people can emotionally deal with change, drastic change in their lives.

What evolved from that, Andi, was an opportunity to take that same roadmap to my clients and to large organizations and really show them how what applies to the individual can apply, expanded out, and scaled out to large organizations as well. Well, once we got past that point now into 2022 and my clients are looking at what’s next, how do I get my people back in here and on board to work? So we started the discussion about how we win back that commitment from our people so they want to come back to the workplace, either physically or even through this hybrid or virtual model that we exist, but still truly gaining that commitment.

And that started the discussion based on that need. And I started researching. I started looking at the data that was coming out of very reputable sources, whether that be Harvard and their Business Review documents, through Gallup, through the Pew Research Center, through Deloitte, through all of them, various big names. And looking at the data and the trends that I was seeing, what I discovered are essentially that there are those four key elements, those four key drivers that we need to satisfy: the need that people have to feel valued, the need that people have to feel like they’re connected, the need that people have to be productive, and ultimately the need to feel supported to learn and grow.

And then in looking at my history, I realized, Andi, that that’s the work that I’ve been doing with my clients the last 30 years. And so the realization just hit me that the very framework that I’ve used over the years to support my clients is the same framework that answers those questions of how we create that environment. So essentially four drivers, and I have four pillars of the work that I do, that essentially each one of those pairings of my pillars addresses one of those needs.

So it’s almost like an overlap, if you will, and it fits so well in the sense of when I talk about how do we show people that we value them well beyond an equitable and honest paycheck, where people can feel like they are being rewarded equitably for the work that they do. Well, if you invest in people and you build their competence and their abilities and their commitment, they can and want to do the job. When you start connecting that commitment through coaching and the team building pieces, the elements now, people can feel like they are connected.

When I work with people on the competence and the systems that will support that, that allows them to be productive. And then when I take the systems that I built, the people systems and the team building, the teamwork part, we balanced both the output of task and the relationship pieces to now show people in a transparent way how they can build their careers and how they can achieve their goals through the organization, and grow and learn and expand their career so they no longer seek other places, other avenues outside the organization. They can reach all their goals within the organization.

And that whole packaging allowed me to really bring the data and the information, the science on one side and my 30 years of experience on the other, and put them together in such a way that now I have a very clear framework that is proven to be successful. And now I’ve got the stories behind it to show and illustrate in the book along the way, the case studies that will allow us to really illustrate each one of these points.

Andi Simon: Is there a case study or two that you can share? Because it’s always the stories that people remember. And as you and I were talking in preparation, I thought there were a couple of great ones.

Kon Apostolopoulos: Yeah. And there’s one particularly that I think illustrates the complete package that I’m describing right now. And I have that, I’ve published that as a case study for the industry itself, and it involves one of my main clients, one of my nearest and dearest clients that I’ve worked with almost from the beginning when I started my venture. They are a construction company and basically I work with one of four regions of this large billion dollar construction company.

But when I started working with them almost a decade ago, they weren’t a $1 billion company at the time. The region that I was working with was about pushing close to 200 million in revenues for this area. Over the years, as we’ve partnered, their goal for their strategic priorities for the five year plan was to double their revenue to reach 400 million in the time that we worked together and reaching up to last year. And this is basically, 2022 was their end of their fiscal year, they achieved 600 million in revenue.

So when I was sitting down with the president, the regional president and his team, he acknowledged that this would not have been possible without the work that we have done together, developing the systems and the people and creating a talent management plan that really supported their business strategy. Now, that’s not in itself the most extraordinary thing, because we can say that, you know what, we contributed. But I will bring a little bit more evidence to the story here. I mentioned to you that this is one of four regions. The other three regions are equal opportunity, equal size with this region. They in themselves only did 400 million collectively.

So not only are we showing the proof of what works for this particular region against their competitors here in this market, but we’re also showing it against the other control groups within the same organization, same structure, same hierarchy, same policies in other areas. We do things a little bit differently here. We modified some things and we’re able to really showcase that difference profitability wise, far exceeding the collective of the other three regions. Satisfaction, employee engagement numbers, retention, promoting ability, all of the key performance indicators that show that you are operating in a way that you have a healthy workplace where people can thrive and they want to stay and they can grow their careers. All of that was evident and present in this case, Andrea, so that’s the point that I point to, that is the example that I point to where everything has come together and all of this suite of offerings has been presented to them and utilized.

Andi Simon: Don’t forget to send me the link to that and we’ll include it on the blog where we put the podcast because it becomes concrete as opposed to abstract, but it’s also data demonstrated and evidence based and it says, Oh, this could really help my business turn from good to great, huh?

Kon Apostolopoulos: Correct. It’s the difference maker because at the time when all the companies were hemorrhaging and bleeding people, they couldn’t keep their people there with the Great Resignation and people were abandoning their jobs in droves and millions in the millions. This company, we not only did not lose any of our top people, we actually became a destination for people leaving their other organizations. So when you can become that employment brand that others seek out, when you become that employer of choice, how much easier is your job? How much does it save your bottom line, knowing that you can attract the best and brightest and retain them within your environment? That is a competitive advantage that will help you truly differentiate yourself from the competitors.

Andi Simon: Well, and it’s not just salary, is it? It’s all the other, I’ll call them, I don’t want to call them soft. They are the kind of human stuff that people are looking for. It’s true. They work for a paycheck, but they really do want to belong to an organization that values them and helps them get valued. It allows them to be productive and creative and really connected to others in a way that leads to better results. 

And so we’re coming back to describing that kind of an engaged environment that we’re talking about. I mean, that’s truly what we were trying to picture for our audience here. And to understand when you are confident that your top performers, even if they pick up the phone and somebody says, Come work for me, I’m going to give you X amount more, and they say, Thank you, but I’m very happy where I am. Yeah, I can see myself here. This is my home. This is my workplace. This is where I find I’m at my best.

That’s a tremendous, tremendous asset to an organization that you can’t put a price on that. No, there is no price because it is the differentiator for life, not just for a company. As for an individual’s life where it has meaning and purpose, it’s pretty cool. So let’s go back to your engagement blueprint. When you have a client map out where they are and where they’re going and how they’re going to get there, can they do it on their own? Do they need your support? Are there steps that are simple to follow?

Kon Apostolopoulos: There are. And that’s what I’m trying to capture with the book. I’m trying to show people an easy way for them to first and foremost, assess which one of these drivers are strengths for them in their current environment, which areas they need to pay special attention to. And I outline each one of these areas, certain elements that should be present and available for them to consider. But I still don’t dictate which way they want to go. I make the recommendations of these areas that they should focus on, provide some examples of my own, but also case studies, many case studies in there.

And oh, by the way, we are also interviewing industry leaders across the spectrum, people that have been there, done that, and can speak to each one of these elements from their own organizations, people like Jamie Simpson, that is the hotel director I lead for a Jumeirah property that just had their 20 year anniversary, the first one of Jumeirah property meeting on Salam in Dubai. And they won the most prestigious team award in their area from Hotelier magazine. And she and her team showed what it looks like to be able to operate.

Now, think about that. We’re talking about a wonderful, talented leader operating in what many would consider a culture that is very male dominated in an industry that is full of male executives. Yet this powerful individual, this talented woman, has brought together in her own way, using her own talents and skills, brought together and created an engaged workplace where people can thrive. And her team can vary, can succeed with proof because that is not a small thing to achieve that award.

Andi Simon: No, And it is an acknowledgement of something more than just financial success. It’s about something much bigger than this. This is really an interesting time. You know, Kon, you’re a giver and you are a person who wants to help others grow. I know as we were talking about this book, what you have a whole lot of things that you’d like to share with our listeners and viewers and maybe their organizations to help them get going before the book comes out. You want to share? Would you share some of those things?

Kon Apostolopoulos: Absolutely. And thank you, Andrea. First and foremost, we’ve developed with my team an online version of our simple questionnaire that will allow anyone to kind of answer some basic questions and get a feel for where are we strong, where do we need to focus on, which one of these drivers do we find present in our environments, which one we might want to pay some attention to, with some very simple guidelines and simple examples of what they can do differently.

So I’d like as a first gift to offer that to you or to our audience here today, Andrea. And we can add that in. We can provide a link for them. They can simply go online, complete their questionnaire and have the opportunity to get some quick answers on the spot. Beyond that, if people are interested in finding out more, I’d love to welcome them into our growing community. And in this community we talk often about tips, ideas, examples of how to really engage our workforce, how to really create that environment for our people. It’s also the place where I’ll be sharing a lot of excerpts from the book, early previews of some of the interviews that I’ve been doing. Wonderful, valuable information that people can immediately turn around and apply, and if they so choose, to be part of this community, this growing community, and have first access to the insights and the information that we’re sharing. Even before the book is published.

Andi Simon: This is so exciting. So we can start with the self-assessment, and begin to become familiar through this group of the kinds of things you’re doing. And then the book is expected to come out by when?

Kon Apostolopoulos: 2024. We’re putting the final touches on it. We’re wrapping up some of our interviews and we’ll have some what I hope people will find as wonderful little surprises and nuggets in there for them.

Andi Simon: I can’t wait. There’s my crackerjack box in my little nugget in there. This has been such fun. Now, if they want to reach you, where’s a good place to get a hold of you?

Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, the easiest place for those people that embrace the LinkedIn platform is to look me up under Koach Kon. I spelled with a K on purpose. Andrea, I don’t want to mislead people. I want to make sure that they know. So Koach Kon on LinkedIn and they can also visit my website freshbizsolutions.com where they can find additional information about perhaps how we can help them or how they can readily find resources to help themselves really create the kind of environment where people can thrive.

Andi Simon: I love it. Do you have a team of people who work with you, or is this mostly stuff you’re doing as a solopreneur?

Kon Apostolopoulos: A lot of it is myself. I do reach out to trusted partners at times. I have a team that helps me with my marketing, with some of my strategic planning, perhaps with creating and building a lot of the assets that are of high quality that I can offer to my clients and to those listeners that we have here today. But periodically it’s always a pleasure to be able to partner with people that I respect in the industry like yourself, Andrea, and people like we can work together. We offer each other our insights and our support, but for the most part, yes, there would be me.

Andi Simon: I think that’s pretty good because if you’ve just been hearing Kon talk, he knows what he’s talking about and he and I share a whole lot of the same challenges as people who work with organizations that need to change or want to. And I can’t say it often enough, but change is pain and your brain hates us. And how many times have companies said to me, Well, that’s not the way we do it. I said, Well, that’s the problem. It’s the way you do it. Yeah, but that’s the way it’s done and I say, But it doesn’t have to be. Behaviors can change and if you change the behaviors, then your mind comes along and makes it sensible as well. So it’s not simple, but it is doable and it is doable with, I think, this engagement blueprint on how to build a more inclusive company that can really, really produce at a level that you’re looking for.

So I’ve had a great time here today and this has been absolutely a wonderful conversation. I will make sure it’s up on our blog and we push it out when it’s time. And I know my listeners and my viewers are going to say, Can I learn more? And I have a hunch you want to learn more. So I’m going to say goodbye to everybody. Thank you for coming. And so it’s a pleasure to help you get off the brink. And the only way you can do that is to see things through a fresh lens and feel them in new ways like we’ve done today. And then give some thought to, Do I need a blueprint? Do I need to begin to put together a process for change? And then we can together or alone begin to help you do just that.

I will tell you that changing behavior is very doable. You just need new habits. And if you think of that that way, you need to stop doing what you’ve done and start new habits and practice and practice and practice until they become the way we do things. And it’s not hard. It just needs to be done. And so these are changing times that require new things to happen. So with great pleasure, thank you for coming. Please keep sending me your friends and people you want me to talk to and people to listen to the podcast and share it. It’s always a pleasure. Have a great day. Take care now. Bye bye.


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